Wow! genius man!!
Some of us are old enough to recognize what TV show my comment was paraphrased from. . . below is a hint (and possible flashback). . .
Upcoming changes to the Photo Critique forum...
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Some of us are old enough to recognize what TV show my comment was paraphrased from. . . below is a hint (and possible flashback). . .
Interesting that there is a problem in the Critique forum. I haven't spend much time there, but I critique quite a lot as a photography teacher & coach and I've been asked how best to critique photos on Quora so I know it can be seen as delicate. But delicate isn't quite the right word in my opinion. A good constructive critique might have a simple formula that follows something like:
Mention 3+ aspects of the photo you like or admire.
The reasons why you like or admire these aspects - important to remember the person has put their heart on their sleeve and even just posting a picture for critique is worthy of admiration. In other words there's plenty to respect in every photo, just having a go...that's respectable. So look for all the good first, look for the courage, look for the charm, look for the ambition. Then go on to look for the good *effort* made technically and creatively and mention these. Be sincere, be empathetic.
Next I suggest saying something like "here are a few points I noticed that may help you out, of course they're just my opinions please take them as such."
Then offer technical and creative advice on aspects that you really do see, this should be done in a positive tone and if you don't honestly know what you're
talking about don't make it up - stick to what advice you actually know you can offer. And if that's limited then admit it humbly.
Remember throughout your critique that the person wants this information in order to take better photographs next time, that's paramount, they are not asking
to be hung drawn and quartered and they should not be - ever.
Ask to see their next shot and tell them you hope your input was of some value.
That's it. It works and everyone gets on and can make progress.
Poll type ratings and exif data...personally I don't see the need, photography is an art and a craft. When I was a kid at school studying art my teacher didn't get tech on me, he spoke to me like a human being and through that I grew.
Hope that helps!
Mention 3+ aspects of the photo you like or admire.
The reasons why you like or admire these aspects - important to remember the person has put their heart on their sleeve and even just posting a picture for critique is worthy of admiration. In other words there's plenty to respect in every photo, just having a go...that's respectable. So look for all the good first, look for the courage, look for the charm, look for the ambition. Then go on to look for the good *effort* made technically and creatively and mention these. Be sincere, be empathetic.
Next I suggest saying something like "here are a few points I noticed that may help you out, of course they're just my opinions please take them as such."
Then offer technical and creative advice on aspects that you really do see, this should be done in a positive tone and if you don't honestly know what you're
talking about don't make it up - stick to what advice you actually know you can offer. And if that's limited then admit it humbly.
Remember throughout your critique that the person wants this information in order to take better photographs next time, that's paramount, they are not asking
to be hung drawn and quartered and they should not be - ever.
Ask to see their next shot and tell them you hope your input was of some value.
That's it. It works and everyone gets on and can make progress.
Poll type ratings and exif data...personally I don't see the need, photography is an art and a craft. When I was a kid at school studying art my teacher didn't get tech on me, he spoke to me like a human being and through that I grew.
Hope that helps!
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ohkphoto
Snow White
The only problem with the critique forum is that the critiquing is not standardized and people are not using any kind of criteria . . . not the posters and not the critiquers. There is such a wide range of abilities on this forum: some new photographers who really don't know what makes a good photograph, so they don't know how to self-critique and get offended when someone makes a suggestion. There are the "pompous, pro-type photographers" who post for a critique, but don't really want an honest one, and are just daring someone to make a suggestion because they don't really want a suggestion, are defensive and just want an argument. Then there are all those in the middle who truly want to learn and don't always get the constructive feedback they deserve because, frankly, the ones critiquing get a little "gun-shy". It's a two-way street. Photographers, anybody for that matter, need to get a little more "tough-skinned" -- it's called being "growing up"
I also teach photography and critiquing is part of every class. They critique each other's work without knowing whose photo it is. The critiques become meaningful because they have learned to analyze the elements of photo . We also deal immediately with the overly-sensitive people. I think accepting any kind of criticism has to be learned.
People are comfortable with a rating system . . . we all went to school with A,B,C, D, F. Starting with a 5 on a photo (which would be an A) and deducting points for areas in composition, technique, etc. seems logical and something everyone could follow.
So, while you have some excellent points, I'm wondering why you haven't shared your knowledge by actually critiquing a photo that has been posted?
Thank you for your suggestions, and if you read any of the better critiques offered in the forum, you would see that most know how to offer suggestions (via your method) Finding 3+ in some photos may not be possible.
I watched the whole public education system destroyed because of the whole self-esteem movement. NOBODY can get an F; EVERYBODY gets a trophy because EVERYBODY is a "winner". Children stopped learning how to deal with defeat in sports and disappointments in life because everybody wanted them to "feel good". But that's a different story albeit related to the topic.
When I post a photo for critique, I have already analyzed it myself -- I know the good points . . . I don't necessarily need to have those pointed out. What I usually need feedback for is some area in which I have ambivalent feelings (e.g. should I crop something out or not) and I will state so when I post the photos.
ohkphoto
"So, while you have some excellent points, I'm wondering why you haven't shared your knowledge by actually critiquing a photo that has been posted?"
I haven't been a member of this forum community for long. I have critiqued a couple of pictures although I'm not certain, without checking back, whether they were in the Critique section, I do know that they asked for critique however.
I hear you on the thin skinned aspect as well as on the pompous pro aspect. From my teaching years I'm quite comfortable in assuring that I deal with, I might add - *understandably* thin skinned learners, I've been a creative director and photographer all my professional life and have had to lead teams and bring out the confidence in young creatives as mission critical for corporates who aren't paying for tender siblings. But I often hire young talent and the buck stops at me, if the project isn't up to standard I answer for it. I believe in those I hire and if I need to train them up I'll have assessed my plans for developing their ability to take constructive criticism and have contingency plans should they fall short. The contingency plans involve nurture, fun, taking the weight off while training the individual's eye. It's, in my opinion the eye that needs training because the camera is only a tool. That being my perspective, experience, and I'll add passion for teaching - I can only say that making critique an enjoyable, nurturing and often two-way process pays off all round and it works to benefit the spectrum from very thin skinned through to thick skinned. I'm 45, have worked for the toughest ad agencies, ruthless PR agencies and editors. In my 20s I was thin skinned so I know how it feels to wear your heart on your sleeve, I also learned from the advertising and fashion industries how tough and insensitive the real world industry can be, it actually constitutes a good part of the courses I conduct - dealing with agencies.
Yes, as you say "growing up" is often required but I personally find that it doesn't need to be a painful process for the candidates in question, it's art and I encourage bravery coupled with providing a candidate/student the opportunity to critique good photographs. When a student learns to deconstruct a masterful piece of work they come away having opened new doors in their awareness. When they are told "there is no creative failure, there's only creative growth" they come away with courage.
By the way, I think the shots in your nikonites album are really beautiful, after writing this I'm looking forward to visiting your website.
I agree with your point on the "whole self-esteem movement", it's not about making everyone feel good in that every piece of work they produce is great...if it isn't. But I think it's important that everybody should feel great about carrying on, about their efforts, about their potential and their right to fully explore their aptitude whether it be as a hobby or as a profession.
I think the education system is archaic and has yet to catch up with the fact that we're all different and learn in different ways. The old grading system has helped as many as it has hindered, this is well researched - our brains are different and when it comes to art it gets emotional for the beginner, this must be taken into account and treated with empathy.
There is a terrible trait among some photographers - the pompous attitude, these people blind themselves and the pomposity is often simply a psychological defense/protection mechanism, it's insecurity. I don't know any real world pros who are wealthy from photography who are overly pompous. A bit of pride is acceptable and often the case, why shouldn't we be proud that we've accomplished something as comparable to being a successful recording artist for example, it's understandable considering the odds. However arrogance and pomposity are an altogether different trait. These guys, in my experience, are often very good but are subconsciously angry that their, indeed good, photographs haven't really made it, bought them a house with a pool, opened up the doors to world travel etc. That anger is to some extent immature and to a lesser extent understandable but certainly not to be advocated.
Loosely, I would recommend a pinned forum "critique conduct" that could perhaps pick up a few pointers from Quora, a one of a kind forum that's "floor plan" has developed a self regulating ecosystem that strongly encourages maturity, creativity and intellect and naturally flushes out spite and bad intent while allowing the young, the old, the learners and the world's current greatest thinkers and achievers to mingle.
The thin skinned can quickly grow tougher and the pompous can be presented with an unflattering mirror in such an environment.
This is a good topic and I sincerely look forward to hearing some good news on the progress of the critique forum!
"So, while you have some excellent points, I'm wondering why you haven't shared your knowledge by actually critiquing a photo that has been posted?"
I haven't been a member of this forum community for long. I have critiqued a couple of pictures although I'm not certain, without checking back, whether they were in the Critique section, I do know that they asked for critique however.
I hear you on the thin skinned aspect as well as on the pompous pro aspect. From my teaching years I'm quite comfortable in assuring that I deal with, I might add - *understandably* thin skinned learners, I've been a creative director and photographer all my professional life and have had to lead teams and bring out the confidence in young creatives as mission critical for corporates who aren't paying for tender siblings. But I often hire young talent and the buck stops at me, if the project isn't up to standard I answer for it. I believe in those I hire and if I need to train them up I'll have assessed my plans for developing their ability to take constructive criticism and have contingency plans should they fall short. The contingency plans involve nurture, fun, taking the weight off while training the individual's eye. It's, in my opinion the eye that needs training because the camera is only a tool. That being my perspective, experience, and I'll add passion for teaching - I can only say that making critique an enjoyable, nurturing and often two-way process pays off all round and it works to benefit the spectrum from very thin skinned through to thick skinned. I'm 45, have worked for the toughest ad agencies, ruthless PR agencies and editors. In my 20s I was thin skinned so I know how it feels to wear your heart on your sleeve, I also learned from the advertising and fashion industries how tough and insensitive the real world industry can be, it actually constitutes a good part of the courses I conduct - dealing with agencies.
Yes, as you say "growing up" is often required but I personally find that it doesn't need to be a painful process for the candidates in question, it's art and I encourage bravery coupled with providing a candidate/student the opportunity to critique good photographs. When a student learns to deconstruct a masterful piece of work they come away having opened new doors in their awareness. When they are told "there is no creative failure, there's only creative growth" they come away with courage.
By the way, I think the shots in your nikonites album are really beautiful, after writing this I'm looking forward to visiting your website.
I agree with your point on the "whole self-esteem movement", it's not about making everyone feel good in that every piece of work they produce is great...if it isn't. But I think it's important that everybody should feel great about carrying on, about their efforts, about their potential and their right to fully explore their aptitude whether it be as a hobby or as a profession.
I think the education system is archaic and has yet to catch up with the fact that we're all different and learn in different ways. The old grading system has helped as many as it has hindered, this is well researched - our brains are different and when it comes to art it gets emotional for the beginner, this must be taken into account and treated with empathy.
There is a terrible trait among some photographers - the pompous attitude, these people blind themselves and the pomposity is often simply a psychological defense/protection mechanism, it's insecurity. I don't know any real world pros who are wealthy from photography who are overly pompous. A bit of pride is acceptable and often the case, why shouldn't we be proud that we've accomplished something as comparable to being a successful recording artist for example, it's understandable considering the odds. However arrogance and pomposity are an altogether different trait. These guys, in my experience, are often very good but are subconsciously angry that their, indeed good, photographs haven't really made it, bought them a house with a pool, opened up the doors to world travel etc. That anger is to some extent immature and to a lesser extent understandable but certainly not to be advocated.
Loosely, I would recommend a pinned forum "critique conduct" that could perhaps pick up a few pointers from Quora, a one of a kind forum that's "floor plan" has developed a self regulating ecosystem that strongly encourages maturity, creativity and intellect and naturally flushes out spite and bad intent while allowing the young, the old, the learners and the world's current greatest thinkers and achievers to mingle.
The thin skinned can quickly grow tougher and the pompous can be presented with an unflattering mirror in such an environment.
This is a good topic and I sincerely look forward to hearing some good news on the progress of the critique forum!
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