Hdr

BackdoorArts

Senior Member
You're making decisions about what you're choosing to lose!!

^^^^^^^^^
This is what you don't do in HDR photography, and it's why your statement about not needing HDR because you can just take one shot and do the rest in post is so absolutely ludicrous.
 

J-see

Senior Member
That's not really true is it?

You're only capable of capturing a certain amount of tones, in or de-creasing exposure only shifts how those tones are displayed. If you add light, you lose dark or vice versa.

Let's say we have a very simple cam only able to capture three tones;black, gray mix, white. Let's say I shoot three boxes; a black,white and gray one.

If I shoot at normal exposure I'll have a black, gray and white box.
If I overexpose I have gray, white and white.
If I underexpose I have black, gray and gray.

If I create a HDR of those, I'll end up with gray, gray, gray.

No program cares what is what in an image. It'll compare ranges and either increase the brightness levels of those or decrease them. That's again killing highlights and shadows. Whatever gain comes at the expense of something else.

If I merge three 24 bit shots, I'll still have to push those into one single 24 bit shot. If nothing would be lost when doing so when starting with a spread shot, that'd be quite the accomplishment.


 

Browncoat

Senior Member
I'm still trying to find the best method to get the one-shot working. Only today I took shots in which it benefits.

Here's another; I killed the hi and shades to get the middle tones out and boosted them, finalized it as a TIFF, did the same with that one and finalized it again and then tweaked that to get a more "toned" down look. I've still got plenty to try but any HDR program doesn't do anything manual processing can't do. Once you discovered those settings, you save them and with one click got the look.

The point of HDR. You're missing it.
 

J-see

Senior Member
The point of HDR. You're missing it.

I guess you'll have to explain what I'm missing.

I'm saying that once I captured a full tone range, multiple exposures won't do me much good. It'll only pay when I, through circumstances, can only capture a limited amount of that range. Example; the flare vs the statue.
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
I guess you'll have to explain what I'm missing.

I'm saying that once I captured a full tone range...

It's not possible to capture a full tone range with a single exposure. You can try all the fancy editing and effects you want, many have tried, all have failed. They don't even come close to a true HDR image.
 

J-see

Senior Member
It's not possible to capture a full tone range with a single exposure. You can try all the fancy editing and effects you want, many have tried, all have failed. They don't even come close to a true HDR image.

Of course I can capture a full tone range. At least as full as the cam is capable. A different exposure only enables me to capture a slightly different tone range. It's not as if exposure enables me to capture more color, it just shifts the middle ground and influences how the captured colors will be displayed.
 

J-see

Senior Member
I did the extra mile and will try to show why HDR doesn't work when the correct exposure contains a full cam range.

I actually used a HDR prog. The watermark should tell you which.

I merged the HDR of different exposures letting the program do the decisions and used a normally exposed to spread out the middle tones in LR and adjust manually only those areas requiring such.

HDR1.jpg

003.jpg

You make up your own mind. I can easily bring out more detail but will pay the same price as HDR; flatness.

And another; still the same image:

003-2.jpg
 
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BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Of course I can capture a full tone range. At least as full as the cam is capable. A different exposure only enables me to capture a slightly different tone range. It's not as if exposure enables me to capture more color, it just shifts the middle ground and influences how the captured colors will be displayed.

And this is where you're missing the point. The highlighted sentence is incorrect. What you are getting is what the camera is capable of capturing in a single exposure. Every sensor has a bandwidth called "dynamic range" which describes the number of stops (EV's) that it's capable of capturing in a single exposure. DxOMark puts the Dynamic Range of the D3300 at about 12EV's. That's pretty damn good, and it's likely enough to capture just about everything you'd want in most average outdoor scenes provided you nail the exposure. But it is nothing compared to what the human eye can see (~24EV), and nothing compared to what the sun can do shining through a small window in an otherwise perfectly dark room.

High Dynamic Range (HDR) Photography allows the photographer to access light information beyond the capabilities of their camera by capturing multiple exposures bracketed in a way that captures all available light. The video I linked above with the light shining through the window? Let's assume that's got 18 stops of dynamic range, what with the pitch black corners on the window side and all the bright stuff outside. The best your camera can manage is any 12 stops of that. The best a D810 can do is 14 stops. That means there's still 4 stops of light information to be had besides the work involved in tweezing out the 12-14 stops you already have - and believe me, getting the extremes of that single shot to look even halfway decent while preserving the color and detail of everything in the center is not easy. But, if you bracket that 12 stop "perfect" exposure with 4 shots on either side, you now have 20 stops (EV) of light information across 9 frames, which is actually 2 stops more than you need (which is actually what you want). Now you can truly get everything and do it in a way that will be far more pleasing to the eye. That is what HDR Photography is all about!!

There are way too many good blogs, books and articles out there for you to read if you want, so I'm not going any further. Suffice it to say, if you still don't get why HDR photography is necessary to capture certain scenes then you're either never going to get it, or you need to clear your mind and dive into it.

Here's my last shot to help you out. Just remember, HDR is not a style or a look, it's a technique.

 

J-see

Senior Member
And this is where you're missing the point. The highlighted sentence is incorrect. What you are getting is what the camera is capable of capturing in a single exposure. Every sensor has a bandwidth called "dynamic range" which describes the number of stops (EV's) that it's capable of capturing in a single exposure. DxOMark puts the Dynamic Range of the D3300 at about 12EV's. That's pretty damn good, and it's likely enough to capture just about everything you'd want in most average outdoor scenes provided you nail the exposure. But it is nothing compared to what the human eye can see (~24EV), and nothing compared to what the sun can do shining through a small window in an otherwise perfectly dark room.

I'm not missing the point. I'm saying that HDR does come at a cost and the broader the range you captured, the higher that cost will be.

When I have a broad range in a shot (0-255 to make it simple) underexposing or overexposing might stretch that range at one side but it simultaneously has to squeeze the other. When I want to get more detail in the sky, I can not do so without losing detail in the darker areas. What happens is a previously more divers range now being squeezed into a less diverse, more uniform range. The same happens when the opposite is done.

The problem with a full tonal ranged shot is that to gain some, I have to sacrifice something else. When I merge those in HDR, it's like me trying to extend the ranges from both ends towards the middle. That's not possible unless something gives. Either the middle will suffer or a portion of the end has to be cut to allow it to happen. Or a bit of both. My merged shot is having the exact same limitations as a HDR merge as it had as a single shot. Just like we have to squeeze all the info of a RAW into a lesser format in order to show it, no matter what dynamic range increase HDR has, it has to be squeezed into one not able to support that range. In HDR it clearly shows what goes down the drain which is why many shots look like a typical 90ies rendering. Room has to be made and since the program doesn't think, it does it all over the shot. It has no clue what is what and just compares values and adjusts those to new ones. It doesn't care if that happens in the sky I'd actually prefer to adjust or in a portion of the image that requires no adjustment.

The only sensible way to "enhance" a ranged shot is to do everything manually. Either brighten or darken using whatever digital tool at our disposal or when shooting multiple exposures, doing somewhat of a cut and paste job only merging or blending in those parts required. It'll still come at a price but a much lower one than clicking some button and hoping the merge is tolerable.

The only advantage of HDR is when there's no full range and I'm not disagreeing with that. The moment a part of the tonal range is flat-lining, exposure compensation has the room required to stretch out that squeezed range without loss. Without multiple exposures it's simply not possible to enhance such a shot because there's too much information lacking.
 
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BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Above I'm showing you the HDR image. It can't be more obvious than that. Where's my gain? What's my loss?

Dude, because you can do it for one lighting situation doesn't mean you can do it for every lighting situation.

Personally, I no longer care about your gain because for me is all been my loss of time. Heads too damn thick to break through.
 

J-see

Senior Member
I guess it's easier for me to just look for a spot in the whisper lane and also pass the same stories to the next. That at least saves me the effort of thinking them through myself.
 

J-see

Senior Member
Yeah, you definitely need to do a lot less thinking.

If I did that, I guess I would be shooting manual now. ;)

I'll repeat it one last time for those that actually prefer to think this through; if your shot isn't flat-lining somewhere using HDR only comes at a loss since it requires room to make any adjustment and if there is no room available, it will make it available.
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
I'm going to spell it out for you plain and simple, J-see. The reason why most people aren't even bothering to respond to this thread, and the reason why those of us who are, are posting funny farm videos and memes of banging our heads against the wall is:

You are so far off the reservation, it's either funny or sad. I can't decide which. There's wrong, and then there's REALLY wrong, and you've gone way past that. What's worse, you refuse to listen to reason or fact. You are making every attempt to justify your position, when there is absolutely no foundation in truth or logic.

Do some homework on HDR.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
I'll repeat it one last time for those that actually prefer to think this through; if your shot isn't flat-lining somewhere using HDR only comes at a loss since it requires room to make any adjustment and if there is no room available, it will make it available.
Sometimes your post's leave me utterly bewildered. This is one of them.

....
I'm going to spell it out for you plain and simple, J-see. The reason why most people aren't even bothering to respond to this thread, and the reason why those of us who are, are posting funny farm videos and memes of banging our heads against the wall is: You are so far off the reservation, it's either funny or sad. I can't decide which. There's wrong, and then there's REALLY wrong, and you've gone way past that. What's worse, you refuse to listen to reason or fact. You are making every attempt to justify your position, when there is absolutely no foundation in truth or logic. Do some homework on HDR.
Dear gawd this could have been my post... The bolded part just needed to be.

...
 
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J-see

Senior Member
I guess I must be b*tsh*t crazy then.

You guys take the three shots and hit the merge if you think that's best, I'll do it my way.
 
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