Photo Critique!

We've seen some debate about the photo critique section & it's merits and demerits...
Am thinking out loud here, not sure if this is feasible at all-

can we make the critique section like a feedback form for both posters & reviewers?
The requirements for the poster would be like only a single image upload & posting exif data etc. in preset data fields so posters can only post a single image...
also posts without the required fields would not be complete, so the system won't allow the upload
everything that needs to be there..

similarly for the reviewers too, a form with the 12 points & space for each of them.
At least it would make it easier for folks who take the trouble to give a critique.
The score can be automatically calculated as well based on the input.

to add- there could be a small comments section for those who want to give a couple of lines feedback.
That can either be sent as a message to the poster or just upload into the thread as a comment than as a normal feedback..

this could possibly be a way to ensure a perfectly working critique section.

Well, that's just my thoughts.

WhiteLight said:

We've seen some debate about the photo critique section & it's merits and demerits...
Am thinking out loud here, not sure if this is feasible at all-

can we make the critique section like a feedback form for both posters & reviewers?
The requirements for the poster would be like only a single image upload & posting exif data etc. in preset data fields so posters can only post a single image...
also posts without the required fields would not be complete, so the system won't allow the upload
everything that needs to be there..

similarly for the reviewers too, a form with the 12 points & space for each of them.
At least it would make it easier for folks who take the trouble to give a critique.
The score can be automatically calculated as well based on the input.

to add- there could be a small comments section for those who want to give a couple of lines feedback.
That can either be sent as a message to the poster or just upload into the thread as a comment than as a normal feedback..

this could possibly be a way to ensure a perfectly working critique section.

Well, that's just my thoughts.

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There has been much debate on this very subject amongst the moderators and there are a couple of things in the works. Stay tuned for more details.

I am more of an optimistic person than one that goes toward the negative. If I am reading this correctly basically you start out with 12 points and all categories are treated equally and carry the same amount of weight. Basically you were able to keep the one point for that category or it is taken away as a -1. As an example...... For starters if you do a good job on lighting you get to keep your one point that you started with. There again if you really went out of your way and spent an extensive amount of time setting up the lighting and invested hours of time in the setup you get to keep the same one point. I see no way to score additional points for any one of the twelve categories you are to grade on. So basically you get a point or you get one taken away so my choice in grading each category is pretty much I like it or I didn't. I know this is what was chosen and that is fine but I just wanted to give you my thoughts on the system. In each and every photo the amount of importance each of these categories can very greatly but their value is always basically one point yeah or nay. I just don't get it.

grandpaw said:

I am more of an optimistic person than one that goes toward the negative. If I am reading this correctly basically you start out with 12 points and all categories are treated equally and carry the same amount of weight. Basically you were able to keep the one point for that category or it is taken away as a -1. As an example...... For starters if you do a good job on lighting you get to keep your one point that you started with. There again if you really went out of your way and spent an extensive amount of time setting up the lighting and invested hours of time in the setup you get to keep the same one point. I see no way to score additional points for any one of the twelve categories you are to grade on. So basically you get a point or you get one taken away so my choice in grading each category is pretty much I like it or I didn't. I know this is what was chosen and that is fine but I just wanted to give you my thoughts on the system. In each and every photo the amount of importance each of these categories can very greatly but their value is always basically one point yeah or nay. I just don't get it.

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You could also look at it as you start with 0 points and work your way up to 12, one point for each category which is excellent. I definitely see your point Jeff. I think the reason for adopting such a system is to quantify "great pic" or all of the other "nice things" we say. It helps to dissect the image for learning purposes. The Critique forum has had it's up and downs since I have been here over the past 21/2 years. It needs to be something more than "nice shot" and our hopes are to move it to a higher level where serious positive critique takes place. It has been a place for casual pats on the back and sometimes nasty remarks; it needs to be positive and educational but also not patronizing just to make people proud of bad shots. We have been debating this for months in the moderators forum and hope to have some changes out soon.

Rick M said:

You could also look at it as you start with 0 points and work your way up to 12, one point for each category which is excellent. I definitely see your point Jeff. I think the reason for adopting such a system is to quantify "great pic" or all of the other "nice things" we say. It helps to dissect the image for learning purposes. The Critique forum has had it's up and downs since I have been here over the past 21/2 years. It needs to be something more than "nice shot" and our hopes are to move it to a higher level where serious positive critique takes place. It has been a place for casual pats on the back and sometimes nasty remarks; it needs to be positive and educational but also not patronizing just to make people proud of bad shots. We have been debating this for months in the moderators forum and hope to have some changes out soon.

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I am in no way arguing with you but it seems that no matter how you look at it each category is worth one point whether you start with zero and add one or start with twelve and taken one away. To me you are saying the same thing as I like it or I don't like it, point or no point! A critique forum is always a hard thing to get going right. I just do not like being told what I will grade on when looking at a picture and having the only option when I decide being to give a point or take one away.

I am in total agreement with you that saying something is nice, or I like it, being pretty much wothless without an explanation. I would like to see us be able to comment on any one or all aspects of a picture we would like to but be required to explain why we think what we do. I understand trying to get people to leave helpful information that enables the person posting the picture to learn and grow from comments but to me this is going from one extreme to another. To me you are doing the same thing you are trying to avoid by giving us a choice of giving one point, "I like it" or taking one away, "I don't like it".

I will probably just avoid the critique form like I have for the year and some months that I have been here. Good luck with it. You know I am very glad that when I was in school that they gave more grades out than 100's and 0's because I would have never passed if they had!

I get what you saying grandpaw..
That would be the thought process for people who know their art...
And a negative point may not be taken as openly as a newbie...

But for folks who are really new, even if they try very hard, there's no guarantee that it comes out right.. Or even if the hard work was in the right direction...

So a detailed critique about their can help immensely and give pointers on where they need to improve..

Btw my OP was not for or against the critique section, but a suggestion on the implementation of the system

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I personaly avoid giving my imput in the critique section because its more of a pain to follow all the guide lines than it is to simply say you like this photo because. Or I dont like this photo because. Why not keep it simple.

The critique forum is not a place for everyone. It is very subjective and needs to be a place for CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. We have had people in the past who were downright ugly in their remarks and that is never CONSTRUCTIVE.

I had a Boss many years ago who gave me a Book to read the first day he met me. The book was "The One Minutes Manager" The one thing that has stuck with me for all the years is When you have to discipline someone you do it in a very straight forward manner but for every bad point you try to have at least one good thing to say and you always try to leave it on a up note.

The same should be done with the Critique section. People need to know what they did wrong and also more importantly they need help on how to do it right. But just as important they need to know what they did right.

FastGlass said:

I personaly avoid giving my imput in the critique section because its more of a pain to follow all the guide lines than it is to simply say you like this photo because. Or I dont like this photo because. Why not keep it simple.

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You have a button to say you like it.
There are other sections where you can get general feedback.
The critique section is there for a purpose.. And it's obviously not meant for everyone!


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The 365 / Daily section is a great place to start a thread of just your own pictures. that way you can ask for help, ask people how they like it. Basically you can do whatever you want with your thread. IT is also a great place to showcase your work. All your pictures are in one place for people to see. I know that I can go to WhiteLight's 365 and start at the beginning and view all of them in order and I can see if he is improving over time. Others I can go to and after watching them day after day I can learn something about them by seeing what they see.

We try to have something for everyone.

I totally agree with all your points. And mostly agree that the critique section is not for everyone. I am so against personal attacks and just plain mean feedback. Thats why I like it here. I don't ever recall reading a responce from someone that was cruel and uncalled for. If the critique section remains the same as it is now, I will get use to it. Who knows, maybe the more I use it the more second nature it will become.

I had a look at the 12point system and thought it seemed very familiar. I went back over my pages and pages and pages of notes I took during my photography class I took over the last couple of months. My very 1st class I wrote down the merits for a great image that my instructor went through and it is almost exactly the same (some things in a different order but all the same). My course was almost entirely on portrait and images for competition. The critique section is very clear that it is for those looking for a higher standard in their image and looking for a serious critique.
I am a newbie hobbyist (family memory collector) so no I won't be posting in the critique section but I sure do learn alot reading through responses when they don't turn nasty or off topic. I think Whitelight has a great idea here if you must post all info and if you have the 12 points in the reply area it would keep people on track and would make a great learning tool for those looking for real critiques and also for those who aren't ready for a critique but are reading and learning.
Having a second critique area for hobbyists where they are looking for more than back pats but are still looking for critique maybe not quite as in depth might also be helpful. I am still very new to this hobby so I struggle with whether I should say anything when I see posts in 365 etc that perhaps could have used fill flash, smaller aperture, have centered subjects etc. I think 365 is mostly getting people to get out and enjoy taking photos and so I "like" photos that have a style I enjoy, subjects I enjoy and mostly its an appreciation However, I know I REALLY appreciate it when someone takes the time to point something out to me because it helps me learn and look more critically at my own work which is much harder than critiquing someone elses work. In this area it would get more people willing to actually point things out that could be worked on for the next image. I was just looking at someones photography portfolio on Facebook (not someone on here) and oh wow beautiful clear pictures, creative way of capturing subjects but dust spots everywhere, everything centered, limbs cut off and landscape cutting subjects off in every photo. Now 2mnths ago I would have thought they were fantastic photos! We don't learn with pats on the back

Very, very nicely said.

I don't think the elements of a merit image were meant to be individual or disjointed elements in analyzing a photo. . . a previous mod thought that by just giving 1 point for each element would be easier than going a more subjective route.

For example,not every compelling or merit worthy image is meant to tell a story. So a point for storytelling is really moot. I also understand the confusion with the 1 point per element . . . it doesn't seem really sensible. What's the difference between an ok photo (gets to keep 1 point because the lighting is adequate), and a fabulous photo with exceptionally creative lighting? Does the lighting have to be poor to lose a point? Then the decision has to be made as to what exactly defines "poor" lighting.

Another example, when I critique a photo, the first thing I consider is, do I want to look at it again? If not, why not, what's missing and what can be done better? That's where the 12 merits come in. If it is an image that grabs my attention, then I do a similar analysis using the 12 merits . . . what's striking about it, is the lighting exceptionally well done, is the composition exceptional and/or does it add to the story? So for me, everything is based on impact first. Not every element applies to every merit-worthy image. As another case in point, think of some of photojournalism . . . high impact and story-telling, but maybe poor technique or composition. Incidentally, I go through the same process/analysis when I "rate" and cull my photos in Lightroom, which brings me to the next section.

Without opening a can of worms, maybe it's worth considering a simple scale of 1-5, kind of like the Lightroom rating system. Those of us who use Lightroom, hopefully rate our photos as we process them, so it's already familiar to most of us. Then use the appropriate (not necessarily all) elements to give subjective comments about why it's a 5,4,etc. star photo.

The biggest frustration for all of us who are trying to make this critique forum work is that many people who post a photo for critique don't really want a critique . . . sometimes the photo is the first one they shot with their new camera, sometimes it's poorly processed, poorly composed. it's kind of like handing in a term paper to the professor without correcting typos or taking pride in the work.

We really wanted this section to be a place where someone could get a very honest analysis of their photo . . . which means that in the poster's eyes, it should be a 5 star photo . . . the whole idea being, is what I consider a 5 star photo the same as what other members consider a 5 star photo . . . why or why not? it should serve as a kind of reality check, which every photographer needs.

I hope I made sense here.

ohkphoto said:

I don't think the elements of a merit image were meant to be individual or disjointed elements in analyzing a photo. . . a previous mod thought that by just giving 1 point for each element would be easier than going a more subjective route.

For example,not every compelling or merit worthy image is meant to tell a story. So a point for storytelling is really moot. I also understand the confusion with the 1 point per element . . . it doesn't seem really sensible. What's the difference between an ok photo (gets to keep 1 point because the lighting is adequate), and a fabulous photo with exceptionally creative lighting? Does the lighting have to be poor to lose a point? Then the decision has to be made as to what exactly defines "poor" lighting.

Another example, when I critique a photo, the first thing I consider is, do I want to look at it again? If not, why not, what's missing and what can be done better? That's where the 12 merits come in. If it is an image that grabs my attention, then I do a similar analysis using the 12 merits . . . what's striking about it, is the lighting exceptionally well done, is the composition exceptional and/or does it add to the story? So for me, everything is based on impact first. Not every element applies to every merit-worthy image. As another case in point, think of some of photojournalism . . . high impact and story-telling, but maybe poor technique or composition. Incidentally, I go through the same process/analysis when I "rate" and cull my photos in Lightroom, which brings me to the next section.

Without opening a can of worms, maybe it's worth considering a simple scale of 1-5, kind of like the Lightroom rating system. Those of us who use Lightroom, hopefully rate our photos as we process them, so it's already familiar to most of us. Then use the appropriate (not necessarily all) elements to give subjective comments about why it's a 5,4,etc. star photo.

The biggest frustration for all of us who are trying to make this critique forum work is that many people who post a photo for critique don't really want a critique . . . sometimes the photo is the first one they shot with their new camera, sometimes it's poorly processed, poorly composed. it's kind of like handing in a term paper to the professor without correcting typos or taking pride in the work.

We really wanted this section to be a place where someone could get a very honest analysis of their photo . . . which means that in the poster's eyes, it should be a 5 star photo . . . the whole idea being, is what I consider a 5 star photo the same as what other members consider a 5 star photo . . . why or why not? it should serve as a kind of reality check, which every photographer needs.

I hope I made sense here.

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^^ Don't think it can be written/explained any better.. i vote this post by Helene be stickied in the critique section...
Seriously..

To me a critique should be relatively simple.......

Tell what you like about a photo and why
Tell what you think could use improvement and why and maybe offer suggestions on how to accomplish the change
This way everyone learns and wins and it is easy and simple

In all the years I spent as a Boy Scout leader we went by KISMIF. Keep it simple make it fun and it seemed to work fairly well. The closer we followed this the more participation we had.

I completely understand and agree Ohkphoto. I think the problem lies in that people don't read rules....

Second there are very many levels that use this forum. The way I see it is that its like school and what we'd expect as a fantastic work from a kindergartener is not what we'd expect from a university student who has worked at it for years or does it as a career. There are many junior high and elementary photographers in this forum as well. The critique section as is, is really meant for High School, University levels and pros which I think that's fantastic. I love reading through those posts and picking up on things people see. I had a look through my instructors newest book I can't remember what its called but it's a huge coffee table book with all of the images that hung in the international competition. Some images were just stunning, some incredibly creative and some I'd have loved to see critiques because really I was wondering why?

I think the critique problem lies with the newer students that really think they've done a great job (friends family have told them) and maybe they have a great image but they're really still needing basic reminders and learning tools so a softer gentler critique. Not a pat on the back while everyone secretly thinks its crap. Like the person I wrote of with a facebook portfolio the person had a great eye and is trying to make a go of it but really simple things are needing to be pointed out so they can grow. When learning it's best to get a critique where you point out things done well (sometimes they don't know they did it well) and something they should work on. Someone who just picked up a new DSLR or has only been tinkering for the past couple years isn't looking for the same type of critique as someone who is working at it professionally or has been enjoying the hobby for many years. There is ALOT to learn and as a kindergartener with the camera I would like a place to post a photo I think is 5star for me but hope that others would be honest and tell me what I could improve on but not dampen my love for the hobby.

Jeff wrote exactly what some forum users are looking for. What they did right, what did wrong and how to improve for next time. Those looking to get into competitions and working on portfolios are looking for something much more in depth which you do well ohkphoto and I enjoy looking over what you have to say because I learn from it every time so the 12 point system critique is great as well. Hope I made sense and didn't bore you all with my wordiness

Keep it simple. One should be able to say their first reaction to a pic without having to follow burdensome guidelines.

And if you're asking for critique, you have to have thick skin. People can say my images are crap... and if that is the first thing that comes to their mind then I want to hear it. Of course they would be wrong, but I want to hear it.

MrRamonG said:

Keep it simple. One should be able to say their first reaction to a pic without having to follow burdensome guidelines. And if you're asking for critique, you have to have thick skin. People can say my images are crap... and if that is the first thing that comes to their mind then I want to hear it. Of course they would be wrong, but I want to hear it.

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I respectfully disagree. We've been there before and have had people do exactly that, and even the same terminology, and they are fortunately no longer here. Besides that, the first reaction is not always the best one. I've looked at images, and my first reaction was sometimes, "good lord. what was he thinking. . . . and yet there was something very appealing about the photo that drew me back.

Photography/art is very subjective. That's why the critique forum is so valuable. You get a cross-section of humanity to give you an opinion. and yes, we all should have tougher skins, but critiques can be given directly and politely. That's where the guidelines come in.

If I post a photo to critique, and someone comments, "sorry. it doesn't do anything for me.' . . . that does nothing for me . . . that's simply feedback. A critique is an analysis . . . what didn't you like? my lighting? poor composition? what?

ohkphoto said:

I respectfully disagree.

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I agree with your disagreement.

ohkphoto said:

A critique is an analysis...

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And there you have it in the proverbial nutshell. I might further suggest a critique is a more objective analysis. The very word "critique" to my way of thinking means a detailed and analytical evaluation. While that is most definitely not to be interpreted as meaning there is no room for any subjective input, I do think subjective comments should take a back seat to objective analysis during a critique. My critique and my opinion can and will be two different things entirely.

I might further suggest photographers who are not ready for critique abide by the old adage regarding the heat in the kitchen.



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