How to tell a client no...

JJewell

JJewell

New member
What do you do when a client asks you to produce something that is incredibly out of style? This client wants headshots of her 2 kids superimposed (in a "floating blurred circle" as she says) over a shot of the 2 kids together, a la 1970. This was an outdoor session with no photos in front of a solid color background, which makes the superimposed photos look even more like random floating heads than a studio session with a backdrop would have produced.
She has also already asked, on her mother-in-law's behalf, so see ALL of the photos I shot that day because "she finds the 'bad' ones characteristically cute." Ack.
She is a friend of mine, so I'm trying to be as tactful as possible, but I'm running out of euphemisms for "rude," "inappropriate," "old fashioned," and "not included in the great price I gave you."
Help.
 
C

Carolina Photo Guy

Senior Member
JJewell said:
What do you do when a client asks you to produce something that is incredibly out of style? This client wants headshots of her 2 kids superimposed (in a "floating blurred circle" as she says) over a shot of the 2 kids together, a la 1970. This was an outdoor session with no photos in front of a solid color background, which makes the superimposed photos look even more like random floating heads than a studio session with a backdrop would have produced.
She has also already asked, on her mother-in-law's behalf, so see ALL of the photos I shot that day because "she finds the 'bad' ones characteristically cute." Ack.
She is a friend of mine, so I'm trying to be as tactful as possible, but I'm running out of euphemisms for "rude," "inappropriate," "old fashioned," and "not included in the great price I gave you."
Help.
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I have found this phrase to be both tactful and informative...

"Not only NO, but HELL NO!"

If you use this and it works, I get a quarter! :devilish:
 
R

Rick M

Senior Member
Think of it as "retro" and charge more :)

Seriously, if you can't produce what they want up to your standards, you'll have to say no. I won't sell work I am not satisfied with as I take it as a personal reflection of my abilities.

​You might suggest another session to get the shots needed to produce what they want correctly. Many, many people are stuck in the walmart studio mindset, you're just getting an extreme case.
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
I've run into this before. Luckily, this is a friend of yours so you have a bit more leeway than I did when explaining this to a customer. My advice is:

Stand your ground.

Creatively, these are your photos and a representation of you as an artist and professional. Your name is attached to them. You're certainly not going to use them to showcase your work because they're so far out of the norm. Most likely, those photos are going to end up on Facebook for the whole world to see (and laugh at). It's just not worth it.

This isn't retail. It's not a business of "the customer is always right".

Kindly explain that style of photography is no longer in style and you do not do "retro" style edits. Then give her something she will say yes to, like a discount on the next session she books with you. It's highly unlikely that you would lose her as a customer if you don't do this for her. On the other hand, if you do this, other potential customers are inevitably going to see it, either via online or as a print in her home and think this is indicative of the kind of work you do.

Ugh...

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D

Don Kuykendall_RIP

RIP :(
ohkphoto

ohkphoto

Snow White
Browncoat said:
I've run into this before. Luckily, this is a friend of yours so you have a bit more leeway than I did when explaining this to a customer. My advice is:

Stand your ground.

Creatively, these are your photos and a representation of you as an artist and professional. Your name is attached to them. You're certainly not going to use them to showcase your work because they're so far out of the norm. Most likely, those photos are going to end up on Facebook for the whole world to see (and laugh at). It's just not worth it.

This isn't retail. It's not a business of "the customer is always right".

Kindly explain that style of photography is no longer in style and you do not do "retro" style edits. Then give her something she will say yes to, like a discount on the next session she books with you. It's highly unlikely that you would lose her as a customer if you don't do this for her. On the other hand, if you do this, other potential customers are inevitably going to see it, either via online or as a print in her home and think this is indicative of the kind of work you do.

Ugh...

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I didn't get the floating head thing until now. Excellent advice, and I would just add one more piece:

Do not show your clients ALL the photos EVER . . . only your best ones.
 
W

WhiteLight

Senior Member
Why not do it & let them see it.
If they figure it's not great they'll back off.. if they like it, you got a winner
But don't show all your pics
 
S

STM

Senior Member
I see both sides of the argument here but honestly, if that is what the customer, and in your case a friend, wants, then oblige them, what is it going to hurt? They sky won't fall and it won't rain for 40 days and nights if you do the shoot like they want. This prospective client has something very important called FRIENDS. A very basic business rule of thumb states that good word of mouth reaches 3 people, but bad reaches 9. So do the math for yourself. A happy client tells their friends how much they loved and were impressed by your work, and maybe their friends will be convinced to let you shoot them too. If you told them no, because you think it (and therefore in their mind their opinion or ideas) were dumb, well.......you have not only lost a client but maybe a friend. If you have any aspirations toward making money with your photography, you have to always keep this in mind.

I say swallow your pride and do the shoot.
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
STM said:
I see both sides of the argument here but honestly, if that is what the customer, and in your case a friend, wants, then oblige them, what is it going to hurt?
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No. In the future, he may be approached by clients who want photography of hairy men wearing Speedos, are you saying he should oblige them as well? Or perhaps a client who wants children in sexual positions. This is a reputation business, and if you produce crap you're going to have a reputation of producing crap.

STM said:
This prospective client has something very important called FRIENDS. A very basic business rule of thumb states that good word of mouth reaches 3 people, but bad reaches 9. So do the math for yourself. A happy client tells their friends how much they loved and were impressed by your work, and maybe their friends will be convinced to let you shoot them too.
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Again, no. Your math is right, but your logic is flawed. The entire theme of doing a 1970's Olan Mills style shoot is ridiculous. It will certainly spread via word of mouth, but not in a good way for the photographer.

STM said:
If you have any aspirations toward making money with your photography, you have to always keep this in mind. I say swallow your pride and do the shoot.
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A huge, resounding NO. We're not prostitutes...even they standards. This isn't about doing whatever the client wants just because they're waving a fistful of dollars in our face. If you take that approach to this business, you're not going to be around very long. There are certain trends that people are looking for. They mark the times. Clients are counting on, and ultimately paying for, your expertise. They are paying you because you can make them look good.

No client EVER hires a photographer who will make them look bad in their photos, which is exactly what this would do.
 
F

fotojack

Senior Member
I agree totally with Browncoat. Better to lose a friend AND a customer than your reputation as a serious professional photographer. And even if you weren't a professional, why would you want to produce crap? No, this sounds like a woman that likes to get her own way all the time. She's telling YOU how to do YOUR job. And no...NEVER show all your shots to a client! Just show them the good ones.

Be persuasive enough to show her the error of her ways. :) You'll be better off in the long run.
 
C

carguy

Senior Member
Solid advice in here already. If this is a GOOD friend, you should be able to use the advice above and simply state that is not the type of photography you do and take yourself out of the deal.

A real friend will understand :)
 
Horoscope Fish

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
In an unrelated field I used to free-lance in we call these people, "undesirable clients" and they tend to be bottomless drains of time and creative energy/impetus. The refrain you need to learn is, "I appreciate your interest, however, that's not really the type of work I do."

Red Lights and Siren/Bonus Point awarded for wanting to sit down with you and go over EVERY shot you took for the session.

Dear gawd man... The chill that crept up your spine when she said that? See, that's natures way of telling you to run like hell.
 
S

STM

Senior Member
Browncoat said:
No. In the future, he may be approached by clients who want photography of hairy men wearing Speedos, are you saying he should oblige them as well? Or perhaps a client who wants children in sexual positions. This is a reputation business, and if you produce crap you're going to have a reputation of producing crap.

Again, no. Your math is right, but your logic is flawed. The entire theme of doing a 1970's Olan Mills style shoot is ridiculous. It will certainly spread via word of mouth, but not in a good way for the photographer.



A huge, resounding NO. We're not prostitutes...even they standards. This isn't about doing whatever the client wants just because they're waving a fistful of dollars in our face. If you take that approach to this business, you're not going to be around very long. There are certain trends that people are looking for. They mark the times. Clients are counting on, and ultimately paying for, your expertise. They are paying you because you can make them look good.

No client EVER hires a photographer who will make them look bad in their photos, which is exactly what this would do.
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Nowhere in my post did I say he has to make a habit of doing this kind of photography. This would most likely be a one-off shoot. Most people do NOT like this kind of photography because it is dated. I am well aware of reputations, I have been doing portraiture for over 25 years, longer than quite a few people on here have been doing any kind of photography. And I agree that the Olan Mills stuff was for the most part cookie cutter crap. But we have available to us now things that could not be done either easily or at all in the darkroom so the quality and innovativeness of work today can far surpass that old stuff. And neither my math nor logic is flawed, for reasons I have already stated. And your example of children in sexual positions is the ridiculous one. That crosses both ethical and legal lines
 
hark

hark

Administrator
Staff member
Super Mod
Contributor
Since you asked for help in saying no, it is obvious you don't want to create the end result. Did you know what the client wanted before you took your photos? :confused: In any case, why not try to help the client/friend get what she wants even if you aren't the one who does all the work?

This is what I'd do: I'd tell the client that photos are copyrighted and I won't infringe on someone else's copyrights. Plus creating this type of final result isn't something I do. HOWEVER, I'd be happy to photograph the people, supply the photos, and direct the client/friend to a web site that specializes in creating this type of project.

Here is one I found but I'm sure there must be many more.

Photo Montage | Arnold Creative Services

If you accepted the task knowing ahead of time what the client/friend wanted, then perhaps you SHOULD follow through with it. No one wants to hire a photographer who can't deliver the goods.... That would REALLY affect your reputation far more than you following through with everything yourself.
 
JJewell

JJewell

New member
Thanks for all the advice! I ended up sending her proofs of the type of collage she asked for, but I explained that I didn't think they looked very good. (I may or may not have used the term "disembodied heads"...) I also told her that this type of collage is usually better suited to studio photography rather than outdoor photography, in lieu of telling her that it's just plain out of style (and slightly hideous). I told her that a more modern approach to photo collages is to develop each print separately, perhaps on canvas or wood, and then hang them together in her home.
I just heard back from her and she agrees that they look like floating heads and asked for me to recommend some other options for her. Hooray!
Also, there are several references in this thread to me as a "he," but I'm a "she." You know what happens when you assume... :p
 
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fotojack

Senior Member
JJewell....you're a "she". Well that's nice to know. It's hard to tell from here, seeing as there isn't a pic of you in your profile. :)

I'm glad to hear that your problem with this woman was resolved without a lot of screaming and whining from her. :) You've made her see the error of her unreasonable wants. Good for you! :)
 
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