The Impact of VR on IQ at Faster Shutter Speeds

[Eyelight]

I should have titled this, Post Your Sharp Fast Shutter Speed VR-On Images.

It really does not matter what can be done with VR off as we have a century of photography with VR off and we know what can be done. The interest is in what can be done with VR on.

Stabilizing the viewfinder image is one HUGE benefit that is useful at any shutter speed. VR is just another tool, and obviously, some have trouble using it, but is it the equipment or the photographer???

Everyone who has an interest in the topic can use their equipment to see what they can do with VR at fast shutter speeds. If one cannot produce any useful images, then they don't have much to add to this thread (other than maybe a crying in their beer note that they can't do it.:very_drunk.

Maybe we find that shorter focal lengths it doesn't matter. Or that if you have time to engage it before the shot, it works better. After all, the manual for the 18-55mm VR G does say to let the image stabilize before releasing the shutter. Hmmmm

We need to remember different makers do VR differently and even with one maker, VR has changed. I would expect to find that what's possible with one lens may not be with another.

So, Post Your Sharp Fast Shutter Speed VR-On Images.

Edited to add navigation note: The thread begins wandering off after post #22 on the semi-related subject of how fast shutters move compared to VR operation. It may be interesting to some, but if not, you can skip ahead. The thread topic comes back a little around post #62 and back maybe all the way with post #70.

 

[mikew_RIP]

Dont know if you want a crop or not

100% crop

VR on 1/1600th hand held

Camera
NIKON D7100

Focal Length
600mm

Aperture
f/8

Exposure
1/1600s

ISO
450​

​

 

[J-see]

Thats one guys possibly intelligent observations,how ever he does go on to say that the people who have shots that disprove that are the ones with hand holding technique shortfalls,i would fall into that category,my age physical ability's mean there is no way i will ever improve my hand holding it will in fact get worse,this is where i tend to lose patience with the idea that one persons ways are right for every one and that is the only way it should be done.
We should only ever offer considered or knowledgeable advice and leave room for people to work as close to that as they can.

The moment you know the working speed of a system (which Nikon provides) you also know the limitations of such system. It is impossible for VR to correct shake when the period it can correct is shorter than the time it needs to do such correction.

We don't need to debate that limit since that's the technical limit Nikon set. All we can argue about is how fast we can shoot until VR stops playing a role.

 

[J-see]

Dont know if you want a crop or not

100% crop

VR on 1/1600th

View attachment 145859

Mike, I don't doubt you can shoot sharp single shots with VR enabled but the reality is, enabled or not, during a 1/1600s shot, it simply can't correct.

Anyways, if you all prefer to shoot with VR on when it isn't doing anything or being contra-productive, more power to you.

 

[Blacktop]

Mike, I don't doubt you can shoot sharp single shots with VR enabled but the reality is, enabled or not, during a 1/1600s shot, it simply can't correct.

Anyways, if you all prefer to shoot with VR on when it isn't doing anything or being contra-productive, more power to you.

I don't understand this. VR kicks in before you take a shot, not during. This is why one has to wait a second for VR to settle down.
Your second sentence has yet to be proven. Especially the contra productive stuff.

 

[Eyelight]

@J-see sometimes you just can't seem to let a new thought crowd out some of the old ideas.

1st) A focal plane shutter at 1/1000 shutter speed does not open and close in 1/1000 second. The curtains travel down across the focal plane in something like 1/200 or maybe 1/250 second (see note below). The 1/1000 exposure is made by the leading edge of the 2nd curtain following 1/1000 second behind the trailing edge of the 1st curtain. So, the time it takes to make a 1/1000 exposure is always much slower, not to mention the time it takes to press the button, all of which adds up to a really long time.

2nd) Having a stable image in the viewfinder is a good thing regardless of the shutter speed. So, even if VR has no positive impact on a shot, it can have a positive impact on the shooting.

Note below: Shutter travel time is what limits flash sync speed. The shutter is fully open for a brief moment at speeds below the sync speed, but never fully open at speeds above the sync speed and the 2nd curtain is closing before the 1st curtain is fully open. This is how we know a rough idea of travel time.

 

[J-see]

I don't understand this. VR kicks in before you take a shot, not during. This is why one has to wait a second for VR to settle down.
Your second sentence has yet to be proven. Especially the contra productive stuff.

Not really, there's VR at work before exposure and VR during exposure. Both are two different algorithms doing different things. If you don't trigger, VR stabilizes the viewfinder, the moment you trigger, it resets the unit right before exposure and corrects what is needed.

I could explain why VR can be contraproductive during bursts (which is what i initially mentioned contrary to it affecting fast singles) but what's the use when I provide the facts Nikon made available for us and those are considered nothing but an opinion?

People are arguing here that one can take a sharp shot with VR enabled when shooting shutter speeds in which VR can't even affect the exposure. What's the use in going deeper into the subject if this is even a point of disagreement?

 

[J-see]

@J-see sometimes you just can't seem to let a new thought crowd out some of the old ideas.

1st) A focal plane shutter at 1/1000 shutter speed does not open and close in 1/1000 second. The curtains travel down across the focal plane in something like 1/200 or maybe 1/250 second (see note below). The 1/1000 exposure is made by the leading edge of the 2nd curtain following 1/1000 second behind the trailing edge of the 1st curtain. So, the time it takes to make a 1/1000 exposure is always much slower, not to mention the time it takes to press the button, all of which adds up to a really long time.

2nd) Having a stable image in the viewfinder is a good thing regardless of the shutter speed. So, even if VR has no positive impact on a shot, it can have a positive impact on the shooting.

Note below: Shutter travel time is what limits flash sync speed. The shutter is fully open for a brief moment at speeds below the sync speed, but never fully open at speeds above the sync speed and the 2nd curtain is closing before the 1st curtain is fully open. This is how we know a rough idea of travel time.

If I shoot at 1/1000s, how long is my sensor being exposed?

 

[Eyelight]

If I shoot at 1/1000s, how long is my sensor being exposed?

Depending on the exact shutter mechanism, it takes roughly 1/200 second to expose the entire sensor.

ETA: It will take longer at slower speeds than the shutter travel time.

 

[mikew_RIP]

Another thread going up the spout,its getting tiresome @Eyelight can i suggest you start it again.

 

[J-see]

Depending on the exact shutter mechanism, it takes roughly 1/200 second to expose the entire sensor.

ETA: It will take longer at slower speeds than the shutter travel time.

So what you are saying is that I can never shoot anything which moves faster than 1/200s at pixel level? If it takes 1/200s to expose my whole sensor, I surely won't be able to shoot birds in flight without it becoming an abstract artwork.

That's only logical not?

 

[Eyelight]

So what you are saying is that I can never shoot anything which moves faster than 1/200s at pixel level? If it takes 1/200s to expose my whole sensor, I surely won't be able to shoot birds in flight without it becoming an abstract artwork.

That's only logical not?

High speed subjects moving horizontally across the frame of a vertical focal plane shutter will indeed distort and appear to be leaning in the shot. The bottom of a car would be imaged slightly sooner and this continues down the frame, so the final image makes the top of the car lean forward in the frame.

 

[J-see]

High speed subjects moving horizontally across the frame of a vertical focal plane shutter will indeed distort and appear to be leaning in the shot. The bottom of a car would be imaged slightly sooner and this continues down the frame, so the final image makes the top of the car lean forward in the frame.

If I shoot a bird at 1/1600s and my sensor can only exposed be for 1/200s maximum, I won't see a bird lean in the shot, I will see only blur.

That has to be true if my sensor can't be exposed at the same speed I select as shutter. In fact, every shutter speed selected above 1/200s should give the exact same shot.

You see the problem with what you state?

 

[Eyelight]

If I shoot a bird at 1/1600s and my sensor can only exposed be for 1/200s maximum, I won't see a bird lean in the shot, I will see only blur.

That has to be true if my sensor can't be exposed at the same speed I select as shutter. In fact, every shutter speed selected above 1/200s should give the exact same shot.

You see the problem with what you state?

Nikon | Imaging Products | DSLR Camera Basics | Shutter and Aperture Construction

Watch the animated graphic about two thirds down the page. Maybe that will help you understand that focal plane shutters open and close like sliding doors and with one following the other. What makes the shutter speed is the distance between the two doors and not how fast they move.

Google it.

 

[J-see]

Nikon | Imaging Products | DSLR Camera Basics | Shutter and Aperture Construction

Watch the animated graphic about two thirds down the page. Maybe that will help you understand that focal plane shutters open and close like sliding doors and with one following the other. What makes the shutter speed is the distance between the two doors and not how fast they move.

Google it.

This is about sensor exposure. It is irrelevant what mechanism is at work. A shutter speed of 1/1000s means that the whole sensor is being exposed for 1/1000s. If 1/200s is the max limit of the duration it requires for the whole sensor to be exposed, action photography is simply impossible.

I don't need to google that. That's the argument you are making. I'm only wondering why I then can take full birds in flight and freeze them.

You're mixing up different things I guess. The limits of flash in regards to shutter speed has to do with the curtain closing too fast for flash to expose the full shot. It has nothing to do with that being the limit the full shot can be exposed.

 

[Eyelight]

This is about sensor exposure. It is irrelevant what mechanism is at work. A shutter speed of 1/1000s means that the whole sensor is being exposed for 1/1000s. If 1/200s is the max limit of the duration it requires for the whole sensor to be exposed, action photography is simply impossible.

I don't need to google that. That's the argument you are making. I'm only wondering why I then can take full birds in flight and freeze them.

I don't mind trying to help someone understand something, but you are going to have to put forth some effort.

At slower speeds, the first curtain opens, the shutter is fully open and then the 2nd curtain closes. As shutter speed is increased, the time between movement of the two curtains is decreased until the two curtains are moving almost simultaneous with a small slit between them at the highest speeds. The small slit between the curtains moving across the sensor exposes the sensor equally, but not all at once. This is fact. It is how focal plane shutters work.

I need to wander off and take care of some stuff. May be awhile before I get back.

 

[J-see]

Let me quote something:

The focal-plane shutter today[edit]

Focal-plane shutter top speed peaked at 1/16,000 s (and 1/500 s X-sync) in 1999 with the Nikon D1 digital SLR. The D1 used electronic assist from its sensor for the 1/16,000 s speed and its 15.6×23.7 mm "APS-size" sensor was smaller than 35 mm film and therefore easier to cross quickly for 1/500 s X-sync.[SUP][98][/SUP]
However, with very limited need for such extremely fast speeds, FP shutters retreated to 1/8000 s in 2003 (and 1/250 s X-sync in 2006) – even in professional level cameras. In addition, since no specialized timers are needed for extremely slow speeds, the slowest speed setting is usually 30 s.[SUP][96][/SUP][SUP][97][/SUP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal-plane_shutter


[SUP]They're not talking about shutter speed but about the speed of the focal plane shutter. I think you're mixing up flash sync speed and the actual speed of the focal shutter.
[/SUP]

 

[Paganman2]

My interest within this subject is obviously with moving subjects - thats just me what i do, any way my main reason for using an image stabilized lens or camera(bridge) is the way it helps the visual aspect of seeing clearly what you are photographing, i think it goes without question that over a certain shutter speed 1/500,1/1000,1/1500 the need for this to physically take a picture with no shake is less important, and if by using VR, IS or similar and trying to track a moving subject while in predictive or just plain tracking, then i would rather not use it.
I think what would be a good inclusion would be where the VR could be isolated to just the viewfinder, without affecting the lens elements, this would be great for composing and following subjects.

P.

 

[Eyelight]

Let me quote something:



Focal-plane shutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


[SUP]They're not talking about shutter speed but about the speed of the focal plane shutter. I think you're mixing up flash sync speed and the actual speed of the focal shutter.
[/SUP]

It amazes me that you post a video that shows exactly what I've been describing and you still don't get it.

The difference between 1/100 and 1/1000 is the gap between the opening of the 1st curtain and closing of the 2nd curtain. The curtains don't move faster and slower; the 2nd curtain just starts closing sooner. If they did a 1/2000 video, the gap between the curtains would be 1/2 that of the 1/1000; at 1/4000, the gap would be 1/4 that of the 1/1000.

If you look at athe gap between the curtains in the 1/1000 video, it appears to be fairly close to 1/4 the travel which is precisely what would be required if the travel time is 1/250 and you need to make a 1/1000 second exposure. Get it?

 

[Kevin H]

how long is this argument going to go on I need more beer