Talk me out of switching to Sony.

spb_stan

Senior Member
There are many reasons to avoid Sony. Sure they are pushed heavily by YouTube gurus who are generally not photographers but social media personalities.
Starting with build. Sony's are built to price point with the widest margins in the industry, and the a7xxx series is no exapection with the least weather sealing of any current brand, in fact none. Their materials and build cheapens out because they only have to deal with them during their warranty period. After that, it becomes a throwaway item. Users update them every 14 months or so on their product cycle because once the model is dropped from production parts and service becomes almost nonexistent. This is an important part of the sales strategy, forcing people to buy the newest model on short product cycles. That is a corporate policy for all products from hi-fis to robots. I was burned by them years ago when my 18 month old digital tape deck which cost me $124,000 became unsupportable when they introduced a new model so dropped parts availability for the old one that was only introduced 20 months before. Try getting a 5 year old Sony camera repaired. It can't be done. Which brings up a related problem with being married to Sony update cycle, availability of service even in warranty is known throughout the industry as the very worst. With the very fragile lens flange and lack of weather sealing, when they die it is usually not covered under warranty anyway. Get stuck in a rain storm and buy a new camera, toss the current one in the trash. drop a camera with a lens on it, even on carpet, and the very weak thin brittle flange ring breaks and the camera is toast.

Focus is the only feature that the gurus on YouTube push as if focusing is a problem for photographers. But they are quiet on the features that make a difference in images because most brands are better. For example what does the a73 do better than a Z6? Handling, build, weather resistance, speed, low light focusing, EVF, rear screen, touch control, connectivity, reliable card system(the XQD is reason enough for pros to prefer the Z cameras), video IQ, color science, image stabilization in stills or video mode, ergonomics, handling, support for years, access service centers, sharper corner to corner lower cost and weight lenses due to the largest flange and shortest flange distance in the industry, long term investment protection(Sony has changed mounts 3 times and will have to change it again to compete with Panasonic, Nikon and Canon which all have FF scaled flanges while the Sony cheapened out and used a tiny one so DX and FX could use the same Dx intended flange), color in JPGs, ease of control and menu that makes sense, and many other features that the Z6/7 has over the current Sony models.IF you use a camera outdoors, forget Sony unless you like buying replacing cameras often.
For some taking more than just snap shots, any camera which does not have an XQD/CFExpress card system is asking for problems.
Video on the Nikon is better in every way from focus tracking, IBIS, electronic stabilization and coming with a soon to be released firmware update, PRO Res Raw 12 bit video.
But the Youtube gurus keep pushing Sony and cashing the checks. Personally, after shooting my friend's a7, a7II, and a7III, I am quite unimpressed with the worst handling camera on the market today. He had to replace 2 despite very few frames because of getting the a7 wet in a minor rain shower and he a7II was totalled when he knocked it off his coffee table and it was unrepairable. So he has over $7000 invested in bodies in 4 years and has only used the a dozen times or so, plus his lenses that will soon be orphaned when Sony changes mount again so they can sell everyone $10-20,000 in new lenses once again.
Why do you need 61mpx, large prints do not need them because they constrained by the same lens resolving power and the Sony small flange assures soft corners no matter what.
For IQ, all the cameras produced in the last 10 years exceed the printer and photographers skills. Any image hanging on walls of top galleries could have been shot with almost anything. But when visiting galleries that list shooting data you might want to take a look at what cameras were used. Not many were taken with Sony. In fact last year's International Press Photography awards in all categories 52% were taken with Nikon and less than 2% with Sony. That says nothing about image quality but a lot about what real pros rely on.
If you want to stay with your current lenses and get the best DSLR ever made, get a D850. If you want mirrorless FF the two best bodies are Nikon and Panasonic S series. The S1 mirrorless but larger and pretty heavy but definitely pro build, and the Nikon Z are definitely high quality in materials, components and build. For corner to corner sharpness, the Z mount S lenses are not bettered by any brand despite being small, light and moderate cost. The 24-70 2.8 for example is the best zoom on the market. The lower cost 1.8 primes are stellar and all under $1000. The $700 85 1.8 S wild open is clearly superior to the Nikkor 85 1.4G and Sigma ART 85 1.4 which was the IQ champ before the lower cost Nikon S lenses.
 

Chris@sabor

Senior Member
There are many reasons to avoid Sony. Sure they are pushed heavily by YouTube gurus who are generally not photographers but social media personalities.
Starting with build. Sony's are built to price point with the widest margins in the industry, and the a7xxx series is no exapection with the least weather sealing of any current brand, in fact none. Their materials and build cheapens out because they only have to deal with them during their warranty period. After that, it becomes a throwaway item. Users update them every 14 months or so on their product cycle because once the model is dropped from production parts and service becomes almost nonexistent. This is an important part of the sales strategy, forcing people to buy the newest model on short product cycles. That is a corporate policy for all products from hi-fis to robots. I was burned by them years ago when my 18 month old digital tape deck which cost me $124,000 became unsupportable when they introduced a new model so dropped parts availability for the old one that was only introduced 20 months before. Try getting a 5 year old Sony camera repaired. It can't be done. Which brings up a related problem with being married to Sony update cycle, availability of service even in warranty is known throughout the industry as the very worst. With the very fragile lens flange and lack of weather sealing, when they die it is usually not covered under warranty anyway. Get stuck in a rain storm and buy a new camera, toss the current one in the trash. drop a camera with a lens on it, even on carpet, and the very weak thin brittle flange ring breaks and the camera is toast.

Focus is the only feature that the gurus on YouTube push as if focusing is a problem for photographers. But they are quiet on the features that make a difference in images because most brands are better. For example what does the a73 do better than a Z6? Handling, build, weather resistance, speed, low light focusing, EVF, rear screen, touch control, connectivity, reliable card system(the XQD is reason enough for pros to prefer the Z cameras), video IQ, color science, image stabilization in stills or video mode, ergonomics, handling, support for years, access service centers, sharper corner to corner lower cost and weight lenses due to the largest flange and shortest flange distance in the industry, long term investment protection(Sony has changed mounts 3 times and will have to change it again to compete with Panasonic, Nikon and Canon which all have FF scaled flanges while the Sony cheapened out and used a tiny one so DX and FX could use the same Dx intended flange), color in JPGs, ease of control and menu that makes sense, and many other features that the Z6/7 has over the current Sony models.IF you use a camera outdoors, forget Sony unless you like buying replacing cameras often.
For some taking more than just snap shots, any camera which does not have an XQD/CFExpress card system is asking for problems.
Video on the Nikon is better in every way from focus tracking, IBIS, electronic stabilization and coming with a soon to be released firmware update, PRO Res Raw 12 bit video.
But the Youtube gurus keep pushing Sony and cashing the checks. Personally, after shooting my friend's a7, a7II, and a7III, I am quite unimpressed with the worst handling camera on the market today. He had to replace 2 despite very few frames because of getting the a7 wet in a minor rain shower and he a7II was totalled when he knocked it off his coffee table and it was unrepairable. So he has over $7000 invested in bodies in 4 years and has only used the a dozen times or so, plus his lenses that will soon be orphaned when Sony changes mount again so they can sell everyone $10-20,000 in new lenses once again.
Why do you need 61mpx, large prints do not need them because they constrained by the same lens resolving power and the Sony small flange assures soft corners no matter what.
For IQ, all the cameras produced in the last 10 years exceed the printer and photographers skills. Any image hanging on walls of top galleries could have been shot with almost anything. But when visiting galleries that list shooting data you might want to take a look at what cameras were used. Not many were taken with Sony. In fact last year's International Press Photography awards in all categories 52% were taken with Nikon and less than 2% with Sony. That says nothing about image quality but a lot about what real pros rely on.
If you want to stay with your current lenses and get the best DSLR ever made, get a D850. If you want mirrorless FF the two best bodies are Nikon and Panasonic S series. The S1 mirrorless but larger and pretty heavy but definitely pro build, and the Nikon Z are definitely high quality in materials, components and build. For corner to corner sharpness, the Z mount S lenses are not bettered by any brand despite being small, light and moderate cost. The 24-70 2.8 for example is the best zoom on the market. The lower cost 1.8 primes are stellar and all under $1000. The $700 85 1.8 S wild open is clearly superior to the Nikkor 85 1.4G and Sigma ART 85 1.4 which was the IQ champ before the lower cost Nikon S lenses.

So, you won't be moving to Sony. LOL!
As I said, I would love to stay with Nikon. That said a move to mirrorless seems inevitable to me and there are some benefits to it. Silent shutter, FPS, EVF, Video performance, autofocus seems to be advancing far fast that it did in DSLR's also.

Sony and others gambled on the new tech, Nikon waited. I think there Z series is exceptional for a first generation but Sony and others have a massive head start that is evident in some aspects of performance. I want an extremely fast frame rate and autofocus capable camera as I shoot primarily Wildlife action. Even with 10 FPS in my D500, I wish I could get more frames of that critical few seconds that I may have waited hours, days or a lifetime to capture. The first Sony A9, now 2.5 years old, seems to compete or beat Nikons best focusing cameras and can do it at 20FPS! The Z series appear to even be slower in real world situations than what is claimed in the specs. Even Nikon doesn't claim them to be sports cameras.
Some think I've already made up my mind, untrue. I am acquiring as much info as possible about who has the closest specs to my needs. The name on the camera doesn't qualify it or disqualify it.
 

mikew_RIP

Senior Member
Ime sure i detect tones of a personal crusade developing, i see a lot of this with the m4/3 i use, sure the long term service will not be the same the further down the road we go but thats the way of things. My Leica 100-400 is none repairable from an owners point of view,if it goes wrong i can send it back to Panasonic and during warranty they will replace it with a refurbished unit, after warranty i can trade the faulty one back to them and buy a refurbished unit at a discount.
Not ideal i know but i see similer situations becoming the norm as we move forward.
I do not see the web being inundated with sony camera write of stories due to lack of support, i do see the odd story from owners complaining about many manufacturers but as is the nature only the unhappy post about it and we never get full stories.

I cant find it now but i was reading about some aspects of the Nikon 1 series not being repairable any more.
 
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Woodyg3

Senior Member
Contributor
Apple won't work on any Apple computer over five years old. Not even to simply replace a hard drive. They call them "legacy" computers. I'm not surprised to hear that Sony won't repair older cameras. But, I can get my older Apple computers worked on by a local shop, are there are independent shops that will work on older Sonys? I don't know, just wondering.

Without a crystal ball, Chris, we can't know what Nikon will produce in the mirrorless market in the near future. IMO, the best solution for guys like us who shoot wildlife would be a crop sensor mirrorless with the kind of performance the Sony A9 has. At least that's what I would like to see. And, I'm willing to wait and see what happens while I continue to be happy with my D500.
 

Danno

Senior Member
So, you won't be moving to Sony. LOL!
As I said, I would love to stay with Nikon. That said a move to mirrorless seems inevitable to me and there are some benefits to it. Silent shutter, FPS, EVF, Video performance, autofocus seems to be advancing far fast that it did in DSLR's also.

Sony and others gambled on the new tech, Nikon waited. I think there Z series is exceptional for a first generation but Sony and others have a massive head start that is evident in some aspects of performance. I want an extremely fast frame rate and autofocus capable camera as I shoot primarily Wildlife action. Even with 10 FPS in my D500, I wish I could get more frames of that critical few seconds that I may have waited hours, days or a lifetime to capture. The first Sony A9, now 2.5 years old, seems to compete or beat Nikons best focusing cameras and can do it at 20FPS! The Z series appear to even be slower in real world situations than what is claimed in the specs. Even Nikon doesn't claim them to be sports cameras.
Some think I've already made up my mind, untrue. I am acquiring as much info as possible about who has the closest specs to my needs. The name on the camera doesn't qualify it or disqualify it.

Chris, I hope you find the move to Sony satisfying. It is pretty clear from the first post that you had your eye on the A9II. I hope it works for you. I also hope that they have done something to improve the ergonomics so you have a decent grip. I heard that they did change the 7IV to a better grip, but they did not fix the menus.

Apple won't work on any Apple computer over five years old. Not even to simply replace a hard drive. They call them "legacy" computers. I'm not surprised to hear that Sony won't repair older cameras. But, I can get my older Apple computers worked on by a local shop, are there are independent shops that will work on older Sonys? I don't know, just wondering.

Without a crystal ball, Chris, we can't know what Nikon will produce in the mirrorless market in the near future. IMO, the best solution for guys like us who shoot wildlife would be a crop sensor mirrorless with the kind of performance the Sony A9 has. At least that's what I would like to see. And, I'm willing to wait and see what happens while I continue to be happy with my D500.

Woody, I hear that a crop sensor is in the works. I am hoping it would be like the D500 with more megapixels. There have been some models showing up on rumor sites. But there are always rumors.
 

Woodyg3

Senior Member
Contributor
Woody, I hear that a crop sensor is in the works. I am hoping it would be like the D500 with more megapixels. There have been some models showing up on rumor sites. But there are always rumors.

I think I did read something about that. Maybe by the time it comes out I'll actually have some money for it. Right now insurance and house repairs are taking all my money. :)
 

Danno

Senior Member
I think I did read something about that. Maybe by the time it comes out I'll actually have some money for it. Right now insurance and house repairs are taking all my money. :)

I hear that.. I just finished replacing a 200 foot water line. I think my checkbook is in mourning. :(
 

Bikerbrent

Senior Member
The big issue I have with Sony is their very poor customer support. Sony's policy seems to be the day they discontinue a product is the same day they stop offering any support for the item. It happened with my Sony Betamax VCR, my Sony pocket electronic organizer and some other items. I have also read too many horror stories about lack of support for discontinued Sony cameras to buy anything more from Sony.
 

BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Jake, thanks for sharing your knowledge with everything you wrote. Since you have firsthand experience shooting with both a D500 and a Sony Mirrorless, it really helps. And thanks for the info on the Topaz software. That's something I will look into myself.

Just to be clear, as nice as the a6000 is, it's not in the same ballpark as the a7's and a9's - totally different experience. I've yet to pick up a Z body but I did play with my brother's Canon and the mirrorless stuff is amazing in some of its functionality.
 

hark

Administrator
Staff member
Super Mod
Just to be clear, as nice as the a6000 is, it's not in the same ballpark as the a7's and a9's - totally different experience. I've yet to pick up a Z body but I did play with my brother's Canon and the mirrorless stuff is amazing in some of its functionality.

Yes I remember you had a different Sony mirrorless body, but you also know a lot of the specs and have firsthand experience with mirrorless. Plus your brother is an amazing pro photographer - no doubt you are well-educated with lots of the new tech between his knowledge and your own. ;) Thank you so much for weighing in!
 

Whiskeyman

Senior Member
... Even with 10 FPS in my D500, I wish I could get more frames of that critical few seconds that I may have waited hours, days or a lifetime to capture. The first Sony A9, now 2.5 years old, seems to compete or beat Nikons best focusing cameras and can do it at 20FPS! The Z series appear to even be slower in real world situations than what is claimed in the specs. ....

Remember that 20 FPS is not attainable in every lighting situation. Lower levels of light will drive longer exposures which can really slow the frame rate down.

WM
 

Chris@sabor

Senior Member
Remember that 20 FPS is not attainable in every lighting situation. Lower levels of light will drive longer exposures which can really slow the frame rate down.

WM

True. Because I don't have the budget for F4 lenses, I have already more or less learned how to deal with lighting. I view the 20FPS much like having 4 wheel drive, you don't use it all the time but, you're damn glad you have it when you need it.
Also most full frame cameras are doing amazing things with high ISO which also makes it easier to maintain shutter speed.
 

BackdoorArts

Senior Member
I view the 20FPS much like having 4 wheel drive, you don't use it all the time but, you're damn glad you have it when you need it.

OK, so you (like me) have 10/11 fps with the D500. Yes, a lot can happen in that 1/10s between clicks particularly with birds in flight/hummingbirds. And yet, I can't remember a time I wishes I had twice as many shots to wade thru every outing just to get the small handful that I've "missed" in that 1/10th over all my time with the camera.

You don't have the budget for the f4 lenses but you're considering the swap? Before you do, get your hands on a 300mm f4 PF. When I got mine I lost 1/2 my reach with the Sigma 150-600mm Sport, but I got so many more shots because I was no longer turning an aircraft carrier - I was turning a sports car. I stick a 1.4x on there and never think about the Sport any more. And the images are so sharp - I was amazed at the difference when I first got it. Consider investing in glass and not the new format and wait for the Nikon Z's to catch up to what you have.
 
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Chris@sabor

Senior Member
OK, so you (like me) have 10/11 fps with the D500. Yes, a lot can happen in that 1/10s between clicks particularly with birds in flight/hummingbirds. And yet, I can't remember a time I wishes I had twice as many shots to wade thru every outing just to get the small handful that I've "missed" in that 1/10th over all my time with the camera.

You don't have the budget for the f4 lenses but you're considering the swap? Before you do, get your hands on a 300mm f4 PF. When I got mine I lost 1/2 my reach with the Sigma 150-600mm Sport, but I got so many more shots because I was no longer turning an aircraft carrier - I was turning a sports car. I stick a 1.4x on there and never think about the Sport any more. And the images are so sharp - I was amazed at the difference when I first got it. Consider investing in glass and not the new format and wait for the Nikon Z's to catch up to what you have.

Many times I have tried to capture an Osprey or Blue-Footed Booby entering the water. Almost every time I get a shot several feet above the water and the next frame is nothing but a splash. Same thing with heron spearing fish, more frames would help. Many times I get the perfect wing beat with the bird blinking its eye and no other shot with as good a wing shot. I'm sure if you think about it, you've experienced the same.

When I mentioned F4 glass, I was referring to 500 or 600mm primes...Currently I don't have much money tied up in lenses and this is another reason I'm considering a switch, before I invest in one or both PF lenses. I may wait a while to see about the z9 and the A9ii and compare. It just seems that it might take Nikon a while to catch up and I ain't getting any younger.
Thanks for the input!
 

mikew_RIP

Senior Member
Many times I have tried to capture an Osprey or Blue-Footed Booby entering the water. Almost every time I get a shot several feet above the water and the next frame is nothing but a splash. Same thing with heron spearing fish, more frames would help. Many times I get the perfect wing beat with the bird blinking its eye and no other shot with as good a wing shot. I'm sure if you think about it, you've experienced the same.

When I mentioned F4 glass, I was referring to 500 or 600mm primes...Currently I don't have much money tied up in lenses and this is another reason I'm considering a switch, before I invest in one or both PF lenses. I may wait a while to see about the z9 and the A9ii and compare. It just seems that it might take Nikon a while to catch up and I ain't getting any younger.
Thanks for the input!

No idea what settings the Sony has but from your description of what you want to do you could check if it has anything like the Pro-Captur setting on my Olympus, basicly it starts saving frames the moment you half press the shutter ( you set how many) when you press the shutter it saves as many after as you set.
 

carguy

Senior Member
Seriously considering moving to Sony. My photos are starting to sell more and customers are wanting larger prints so I was all set on the D850.

I am noticing that it seems Nikon is slowly abandoning DSLRs in favor of mirrorless. Most Youtube photography channels are saying the DSLR is the past.

The mirrorless offerings by Nikon seem pretty decent but Sony has such a head start. Sony's video autofocus is superior and from time to time I do shoot a little video for facebook and youtube.

I want silent shooting also. I want more FPS for wildlife action. Sony even has the new 200-600mm at a decent price. I'm waiting to hear the specs for the A9ii but, the A7Riv has incredible specs and 61 MP. In crop mode it has 26 MP. I would rather have the A9 because of the no blackout shutter.

There used to be several reasons Sony wouldn't work for me...I think they have solved all the old issues I had...

Change my mind, if you can.

I'm not here to change your mind, but;

The notion to sell your DSLR because it is a fading tech is not a reason to sell what you have right now. This aligns with the brainwashing Nikon instills with their marketing. Somehow, automagically 2-3 year old cameras are now obsolete and no longer result in good photos. Buy the newest! Buy the greatest!


The only two reasons to sell what you have are 1: It isn't doing what you want it to do and not producing the end result you want. 2: The equipment is aging and repairs will cost more than it is worth.

The D500 is a beast and the D7200 is no slouch.
 

Chris@sabor

Senior Member
I'm not here to change your mind, but;

The notion to sell your DSLR because it is a fading tech is not a reason to sell what you have right now. This aligns with the brainwashing Nikon instills with their marketing. Somehow, automagically 2-3 year old cameras are now obsolete and no longer result in good photos. Buy the newest! Buy the greatest!


The only two reasons to sell what you have are 1: It isn't doing what you want it to do and not producing the end result you want. 2: The equipment is aging and repairs will cost more than it is worth.

The D500 is a beast and the D7200 is no slouch.

I have no plans to sell my D500 or my compatible lenses. I would definitely like to sell my dust gathering but excellent, D7200.
Thanks!
 

Danno

Senior Member
When I mentioned F4 glass, I was referring to 500 or 600mm primes...Currently I don't have much money tied up in lenses and this is another reason I'm considering a switch, before I invest in one or both PF lenses. I may wait a while to see about the z9 and the A9ii and compare. It just seems that it might take Nikon a while to catch up and I ain't getting any younger.
Thanks for the input!

Chris I am just going to chime in one more time. In regards to your waiting to see how the A9II and the Z9, (if there is one in the near future) compare.

If I had listened to the reviews of Tony and Chelsea Northrop, The Angry Photographer, Fro Photo, and a half a dozen others that slammed the Z6 and Z7 I would have never bought. In stead I listened to a friend of mine that shoots similar things to me that bought a Z7 and that, along with other less infamous influencers reviewed the Z series cameras.

What I learned about these "professional" reviewers took no time to get familiar with the camera. Tony and Chelsea complained about the white balance and had no idea that there were three Auto WB settings and when they sent out the video on how to set up the menus they blew it. Half the recommendations were wrong. None of them know how to aquire a start point when using tracking in a cluttered scene, but it is different and in the manual.

Now Fro has walked his position back and likes the Z cameras almost begrudgingly. The Angry Photographer still hates the camera but claims he never trashed the image output. Many of the others, including some Sony folks, speak much better about the Z cameras. The thing is the Z cameras operate a bit differently than the Nikon DSLRs. Those of us that took the time to work with them love them. I could not be happier than I am with my Z6. I am able to capture my dog running toward me and I could not do that with the D700 or 7200. It is no D500 but right now it is the best body I have ever owned and keeps getting better with each firmware update because Nikon seems to be listening to owners.

If you chose to wait rent the bodies and try them out. They are amazing. I have seen some amazing wild life shot with the Z6 and Z7. I do know what you mean about shutter count though. That is part of the reason I can capture Jersey Girl with my Z6 :). I just keep it on 10 FPS.
 

Chris@sabor

Senior Member
Chris I am just going to chime in one more time. In regards to your waiting to see how the A9II and the Z9, (if there is one in the near future) compare.

If I had listened to the reviews of Tony and Chelsea Northrop, The Angry Photographer, Fro Photo, and a half a dozen others that slammed the Z6 and Z7 I would have never bought. In stead I listened to a friend of mine that shoots similar things to me that bought a Z7 and that, along with other less infamous influencers reviewed the Z series cameras.

What I learned about these "professional" reviewers took no time to get familiar with the camera. Tony and Chelsea complained about the white balance and had no idea that there were three Auto WB settings and when they sent out the video on how to set up the menus they blew it. Half the recommendations were wrong. None of them know how to aquire a start point when using tracking in a cluttered scene, but it is different and in the manual.

Now Fro has walked his position back and likes the Z cameras almost begrudgingly. The Angry Photographer still hates the camera but claims he never trashed the image output. Many of the others, including some Sony folks, speak much better about the Z cameras. The thing is the Z cameras operate a bit differently than the Nikon DSLRs. Those of us that took the time to work with them love them. I could not be happier than I am with my Z6. I am able to capture my dog running toward me and I could not do that with the D700 or 7200. It is no D500 but right now it is the best body I have ever owned and keeps getting better with each firmware update because Nikon seems to be listening to owners.

If you chose to wait rent the bodies and try them out. They are amazing. I have seen some amazing wild life shot with the Z6 and Z7. I do know what you mean about shutter count though. That is part of the reason I can capture Jersey Girl with my Z6 :). I just keep it on 10 FPS.

Totally Agree! They were all very "hard" on the Z series which I still don't fully understand.

Question for you; Are you getting 10 FPS in continuous autofocus? I have read that the actual frame rate is much slower...
 
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