Old flashes - need help

[hrphotography]

I am trying to use few old flashes through an optical slave (simple setup).
Does anyone know how to get the maximum output through these?
There is a manual and auto mode then a selector for ASA & DIN which I don't know how to use. I just need to know at which setting these flashes fire at maximum?
Thank you : )


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[hrphotography]

 

[Marcel]

The Vivitar you put on M (middle position), the one on the right seems to have a switch (M-A) but the first one I have no clue about.

 

[hrphotography]

both have ASA/DIN selectors with a range, how does that work?
the canon one has the big dial which rotates.

 

[WayneF]

both have ASA/DIN selectors with a range, how does that work?
the canon one has the big dial which rotates.

Not specifically about those flashes, but generally AUTO mode dates back to the 1970s (transistor automation, but no camera TTL yet). The flash has a front sensor which monitors its light reflected back from the subject, and it terminates the flash when that light is deemed sufficient exposure. It knows exposure because you set the used value of f/stop and ISO speed into the flash (ISO and ASA are same thing, same numbers, ISO is modern equivalent). Auto is automation, but not TTL, not controlled by the camera.

You probably want Manual flash mode (which allows your control), and you set the power level for your exposure, full power, 1/2 power, 1/4 power, etc (whatever YOU deem to be correct exposure - could use a hand held meter). Fstop and ASA are ignored then, does not matter - it instead does the power level you set. DIN was a different European method of numerical film speed, like ASA, but different numbers.

Here is a manual which may help (pdf link at bottom)

http://mattsclassiccameras.com/vivitar_2800.html

 

[hrphotography]

there is no power level switch on these flashes. the only setting is 1, Auto n Manual 2. the ASA/DIN sliding switch.

if i set to M mode (manual), will the flash fire at max? will changing the ASA/DIN to a lower or higher valve matter?

 

[WayneF]

there is no power level switch on these flashes. the only setting is 1, Auto n Manual 2. the ASA/DIN sliding switch.

if i set to M mode (manual), will the flash fire at max? will changing the ASA/DIN to a lower or higher valve matter?

Yeah, times were different back then. You have two flashes, each a little different, but probably the same idea.... that one has the sliders for ASA, aperture and distance, and the other has the rotating dial for same three values, same thing.

The manual tells you (in Manual mode), to determine the distance to subject and enter it, and also the f-stop, into those dials (and ASA too). I don't think that will always be full manual power. The idea is it will be the right power for the numbers you entered, less than full power when necessary.

You should be able to just enter reasonable guesses for those values, and then adjust them (lie to it when necessary) if you need a different result than you get.
Even if you could enter a manual level, you would still have to adjust it to be the right value (to give you the exposure you want).

So if you want it to be brighter, tell it greater distance, larger fstop number, and/or lower ASA.

Double ASA is one stop down (ASA is numerically equal to ISO... ASA was the old American standard, which was adopted by international ISO organization. That was 1974, so your flash probably dates back to at least then).

After such adjustment, it won't actually matter what the numbers are, but the relative combinations should affect the power level (within limits, until you max out).
The one says GN is 80, which is decent, comparable to a SB-700 at 24mm zoom.

You will just have to experiment a little with them, if they still work.

Unrequested advice:

IMO, we don't have to live like that, and since you have a D610, my guess is you can probably afford a couple of modern flashes.

So FWIW, the Yongnuo YN560II ($60 Amazon.com) or the Neewer TT560 ($40 Amazon.com) are manual flashes (no TTL in those models) which will run circles around those old ones. New, and stronger power level, includes built-in optical slaves, modern controls, etc. Note that both of those have Hundreds of 5 star user ratings there, people like them.

 

[DraganDL]

"if i set to M mode (manual), will the flash fire at max?" - Yes.

"will changing the ASA/DIN (while in 'Manual' mode) to a lower or higher valve matter?" - No. I don't see any reason - it should only matter in Auto mode(s), because it allows the flash's sensor to calculate amount of light needed in a specific situation.

 

[hrphotography]

@WayneF....thank you very much.
i have a newer sunpak flash which works well on the camera, was just trying to use these old flashes (i have four of them) for more indirect light (in case it need it).
i have rarely ever used flash for my photos so i do not have much idea about them, forgive me for sounding stupid.
another thing i noticed, when i use an optical slave, the light is not synchronized with the shutter. I was using the camera built in flash at lowest power just to trigger the optical slave, the slave flash fires but never synchronized. is there a way to change the timing of the camera flash so it would synchronize the slave with the shutter timing?
will the Neewer TT560 synchronize better off camera?

 

[WayneF]

@WayneF....thank you very much.
i have a newer sunpak flash which works well on the camera, was just trying to use these old flashes (i have four of them) for more indirect light (in case it need it).
i have rarely ever used flash for my photos so i do not have much idea about them, forgive me for sounding stupid.
another thing i noticed, when i use an optical slave, the light is not synchronized with the shutter. I was using the camera built in flash at lowest power just to trigger the optical slave, the slave flash fires but never synchronized. is there a way to change the timing of the camera flash so it would synchronize the slave with the shutter timing?
will the Neewer TT560 synchronize better off camera?

Are you certain the camera internal flash is in Manual flash mode? You said lowest level (which is fine, should work), but D610 menu E3 must select Manual (not TTL, and not Commander, neither of those will work, both will do what you report, which is my suspicion).

E3 TTL or Commander menu choices will fire early commands or preflash which makes the optical slave trigger early, before the shutter is open (100% ineffective). This is an extremely common problem/question about slaves not triggering right, so it is my automatic assumption, it is always the answer. The first thing is to make sure D610 menu E3 says Manual flash mode. Then it should work, and lowest power level there probably works fine too. I really feel that has to be the only actual problem.


I could not say the Neewer will "sync better". That mostly depends on the camera flash being in real Manual mode. Neewer does have internal slaves, powered by the batteries, instead of powered by the sync voltage (so generally more sensitive). It has two slave modes, S1 and S2. S1 is regular optical slave that you would want, and S2 will ignore the TTL preflash (but probably not the commander commands), allowing it to be used with compact cameras that have no manual flash mode. It will have manual power level in 1/3 stops, and just generally modern, and in new prime condition.

Here it is on their web site: neewer

 

[Marcel]

With the older flashes that don't have the manual mode but just the iso and aperture adjustments, you can fool the flash to give you always the max output by telling it you're using f-16 with 100 iso. As far as how much power it will deliver, it will be up to you to test each of them individually (just shoot, look at the histogram and then either change the aperture or iso in camera). One you test them all, you can start to figure out the distance at which each of them will perform best for different types of shoots, wether with or without a light modifier (umbrella, bounce, etc). This is where digital shines, just shoot and make corrections. After a few shots, you should be in business once you figure out the correct camera settings to trigger the other flashes with their slave units.

Then the fun starts!

 

[hrphotography]

yes u are right, it was in TTL mode, when changed to manual works fine

thank you

 

[hrphotography]

i know i ask many questions, but if u can help me figure this out.
in manual mode, using the built in camera flash, the optical slaved flash fires OK.
when i use Sunpak PF30X on camera's hot shoe as a fill flash it works well with both TTL and manual modes (changed in the camera).
but when i add an an off camera (old) flash with optical slave (to the same scenario, camera in manual flash mode, sunpak flash connected on camera) something happens and the fill light becomes less than when the slave is turned off.
it seems like adding a slave changes the on camera external flash's setting even if the camera is in manual flash mode.

 

[Marcel]

i know i ask many questions, but if u can help me figure this out.
in manual mode, using the built in camera flash, the optical slaved flash fires OK.
when i use Sunpak PF30X on camera's hot shoe as a fill flash it works well with both TTL and manual modes (changed in the camera).
but when i add an an off camera (old) flash with optical slave (to the same scenario, camera in manual flash mode, sunpak flash connected on camera) something happens and the fill light becomes less than when the slave is turned off.
it seems like adding a slave changes the on camera external flash's setting even if the camera is in manual flash mode.

View attachment 74736View attachment 74737

I suspect that your Sunpak is not in manual mode too. These old flashes were measuring the light output and changing their flash duration to vary the power. So, you've got to fool it so it doesn't change it's exposure when other flashes get in conjunction with them.

 

[Mike D90]

If there is no auto setting or Manual setting you need to set the ASA/DIN slider to the lowest ASA setting/max distance setting.

 

[Mike D90]

i know i ask many questions, but if u can help me figure this out.
in manual mode, using the built in camera flash, the optical slaved flash fires OK.
when i use Sunpak PF30X on camera's hot shoe as a fill flash it works well with both TTL and manual modes (changed in the camera).
but when i add an an off camera (old) flash with optical slave (to the same scenario, camera in manual flash mode, sunpak flash connected on camera) something happens and the fill light becomes less than when the slave is turned off.
it seems like adding a slave changes the on camera external flash's setting even if the camera is in manual flash mode.

View attachment 74736View attachment 74737

Your off camera flash thyristor is reading the main flash as output and is cutting its power down to compensate. Must be set to Manual or cover the thyristor with black tape.

 

[WayneF]

i know i ask many questions, but if u can help me figure this out.
in manual mode, using the built in camera flash, the optical slaved flash fires OK.
when i use Sunpak PF30X on camera's hot shoe as a fill flash it works well with both TTL and manual modes (changed in the camera).

I am unsure what you mean. I think (not certain) the Sunpak PF30X is iTTL only, and has no menu to select Manual flash. I think it cannot possibly do manual mode. Feel very free to tell me where I go wrong.

The menu in the camera only affects the camera internal flash, which is out of play if its door is shut. The camera menu does not affect a hot shoe flash. Normally the hot shoe flash has its own menu and control. The Sunpak is probably an exception in that it only does one thing (TTL), and needs nothing but an on/of switch.

(there is an exception, the Nikon SB-300 and SB-400 also use that internal menu to select Manual or TTL, but I suspect that is strictly a Nikon thing. They would not support a competing flash model that way).

but when i add an an off camera (old) flash with optical slave (to the same scenario, camera in manual flash mode, sunpak flash connected on camera) something happens and the fill light becomes less than when the slave is turned off.
it seems like adding a slave changes the on camera external flash's setting even if the camera is in manual flash mode.

View attachment 74736View attachment 74737

I don't know. My suspicion is the Sunpak is necessarily always TTL mode, and will always preflash, which should always trigger the slave too early to contribute anything.

I think that if the light is greater when the slave is turned on, it could only be because the slave is able to contribute somehow. Which seems unlikely from a TTL trigger, but for example, the SB-800 responds very fast, and can flash at the preflash, and can flash again at the final flash (if at less than full power level). But most flashes can only flash once, at the preflash, and then they are spent. I really do not expect the Vivitar can flash twice that fast - so I am very puzzled about what could be happening.

So... I really have no idea. However, the picture I would like to see is this:

I would suggest repeating it, but in this way. Photo is like a tabletop shot, of an object on a table top or some surface we can see, to make a shadow we can see on that surface. This object should make a dark shadow behind it. Something opaque standing up would be ideal. Large or small object probably does not matter. The presence of shadows is the goal. Maybe the object standing on white paper, to emphasize the shadow.

Specifically rotate the camera up on its end (vertical orientation), specifically so the hotshoe flash is at one side of lens instead of directly above the lens. Then the hot shoe flash shadow is at the other side of the object, so it can be seen (otherwise if above the lens, shadow may be directly behind, and be very hard to see).

The remote slave makes another second shadow, much more to the side, maybe the other side (opposite the side to which the hot shoe flash is rotated). Then you can recognize the two shadows in the picture, and better identify the intensity of the two flashes by the darkness of the shadow (one flash tries to fill and lighten the shadow made by the other flash). If the flashes are about equal intensity, both shadows will be present, about equal, but not fully dark. If one flash is stronger, it weakens the other shadow more, and its own shadow is darker.

The point is, then we can see which flash is doing what, and better sense what is actually happening... I hope that is a good idea.

 

[hrphotography]

i should have mentioned, the sunpak here is a new one with TTL (does not have a TTL or manual switch though), i changed its power manually to Exp +1. the vivitar thyristor is set to M.
so as u can see in the first photo, the vivitar (with optical shoe) did something that the TTL sunpak (on camera's hotshoe) failed to illuminate (although camera is set to manual flash).
So i am confused, if the camera is set to manual flash mode, how can a optical slave change the sunpak's output.

sunpak is on camera : )

 

[hrphotography]

I think that if the light is greater when the slave is turned on, it could only be because the slave is able to contribute somehow. Which seems unlikely from a TTL trigger, but for example, the SB-800 responds very fast, and can flash at the preflash, and can flash again at the final flash (if at less than full power level). But most flashes can only flash once, at the preflash, and then they are spent. I really do not expect the Vivitar can flash twice that fast - so I am very puzzled about what could be happening.

I guess you explained it, actually the light is LESS when the slave is turned on, which confused me. I think you are right, sunpak does not have manual mode and is always TTL.

 

[WayneF]

Your off camera flash thyristor is reading the main flash as output and is cutting its power down to compensate. Must be set to Manual or cover the thyristor with black tape.

That does sound like a good bet, if it is NOT in Manual mode.