Help: Inconsistent color & contrast

[Keen Ai]

Hi all, I really hope some people will take the time to read about my problem here and hopefully help me. My workflow is entirely disrupted until I fix this.

I had a Dell U2713HM wide-gamut LCD monitor roughly calibrated by eye such that it matched my primarily print lab (MPix Pro). What I created in Lightroom or Photoshop was close enough to what I saw in the prints, in Windows Photo Viewer, and in Infranview or any web browser, as to be indistinguishable from each other. I was happy, clients were happy. And then my monitor developed some dead pixels and the nightmare begins.

I had no problem exchanging the monitor through Dell, winding up with a refurbished one that seems in good shape. Yay. I had written down all my manual monitor adjustments to RGB values etc. on the old monitor. But I couldn't replicate them onto the new monitor because the new one (although same model) has a more diverse menu interface with more options. Still, I did my best to calibrate by hand and got fairly close but still wound up being off.

Here's when I first noticed the real problem. When I open a photo in Lightroom (4.3), Photoshop (CS6), or Windows Photo Viewer (Win 8), the colors are dull, unsaturated and the the photo lacks contrast. Opening the same photo in Infranview gives me the image I am accustomed to seeing with good color and contrast. I figured maybe this was just a problem that monitor calibration would fix, and since I wasn't happy with the eye-ball calibration anyway, I ordered an i1Display Pro calibration device from x-rite. I have played with it quite a few times, creating various profiles for my monitor. I'm still not happy with it due to color casts (despite setting the white point and gamma to values recommended by MpixPro) but no matter what I do, I still have the same issue of dull images in PS/LR and Windows Photo Viewer. If I put Windows Photo Viewer into full-screen slideshow mode, the pictures look fine. As soon as I exit full screen/slideshow mode, they are dull again. If I set them as desktop background, they look fine. What is going on?!?!?!?!?!

Everything I've read on the internet so far, after scouring it, seems to indicate that "Lightroom and Photoshop are color managed" and any problems I see there are just because I'm not used to seeing the picture as it really is. Phooey. I had NO problem getting images the way I wanted them in Lightroom/PS (with no soft-proofing), exporting to sRGB, and viewing in any application AND printing from mpix pro to my satisfaction until I got this new monitor.

Here is a screengrab -- I opened the same jpeg image (exported from LR with sRGB profile with my original monitor some weeks ago) in Infranview(left) and Windows Pic Viewer (right). Opening the same image in Lightroom or Photoshop looks the same as the Windows Pic Viewer side. I can verify that the Infranview version is what the print lab most closely matches, because I have prints from this shoot on hand.


Here is an imgur link to the same comparison pic: http://i.imgur.com/1ZzTSmg.jpg (it seems the forum made my pic tiny)
If you are seeing what I am, the version on the right is unsaturated, lacks contrast and appears dull. According to all the wisdom I can find on the internet, the prints should be appearing as the image does on the right. But this obviously is not the case, and I am totally at a loss for what to do. I cannot work if I cannot see accurate colors in Lightroom.

Anybody have ideas?
Thanks,
Bryan

 

[Horoscope Fish]

I have to wonder if this is related to differing colorspaces (sRGB vs. Adobe RGB), such as a photo's colorspace not being respected, or something along those lines...

 

[Keen Ai]

Lightroom develop module displays images in Adobe RBG which is wider than being exported to sRGB for print, but this is nothing new. It worked fine previously, so I don't see how it could necessarily be related to that unless there is a defect with my monitor.

 

[Horoscope Fish]

Lightroom develop module displays images in Adobe RBG which is wider than being exported to sRGB for print, but this is nothing new. It worked fine previously, so I don't see how it could necessarily be related to that unless there is a defect with my monitor.

I don't know why either, but your example images certainly LOOK like the issue lies with the colorspace. The shot on the left looks distinctly sRGB while the duller, flatter right image looks distinctly Adobe RGB. Are these profiles embedded in the images?

 

[Fred Kingston_RIP]

Any discussion of the differences between screen and paper, and programs is useless without a calibrated monitor. You're just wasting time, and fooling yourself. Buy a calibration kit, and calibrate your monitor. You're posting screen shots of an uncalibrated monitor and asking folks to look at them for comparison... That's like asking 10 blind men to tell you what they see... They all see something different.

 

[Keen Ai]

I don't know why either, but your example images certainly LOOK like the issue lies with the colorspace. The shot on the left looks distinctly sRGB while the duller, flatter right image looks distinctly Adobe RGB. Are these profiles embedded in the images?

Both of those images have sRGB embedded, yes.


** To clarify, it is the same picture file, simply open in different programs. But yes, when it was originally created, it was exported from a RAW in Lightroom to jpeg with embedded sRBG profile.

 

[Keen Ai]

Any discussion of the differences between screen and paper, and programs is useless without a calibrated monitor. You're just wasting time, and fooling yourself. Buy a calibration kit, and calibrate your monitor. You're posting screen shots of an uncalibrated monitor and asking folks to look at them for comparison... That's like asking 10 blind men to tell you what they see... They all see something different.

Fred, you must have not read my entire post. The new monitor -- the one from which the screenshots I posted were taken -- was just calibrated with an i1Display Pro from x-rite.

 

[Keen Ai]

In any case, if Lightroom displays in Adobe RGB and that is notoriously dull/flat on wide gamut monitors, then why have I never had a problem with it until now? I have the same monitor model, albeit a new/refurbished one. I don't know why the Adobe RGB colorspace would look so drastically different to me now than it did before. Makes no sense.

 

[Fred Kingston_RIP]

I'm sorry. I didn't see that in your first post.

 

[Horoscope Fish]

In any case, if Lightroom displays in Adobe RGB and that is notoriously dull/flat on wide gamut monitors, then why have I never had a problem with it until now? I have the same monitor model, albeit a new/refurbished one. I don't know why the Adobe RGB colorspace would look so drastically different to me now than it did before. Makes no sense.

This, meaning the bolded part, I think, is the key...

I say this because your aRGB image looks precisely how I would expect an aRGB image to look if it had not yet been processed. I can't tell you why it is that they do, but aRGB files have always looked flatter and duller to me out of the camera than sRGB files. Both colorspaces work up with equal ease in post-processing and I usually convert my aRGB files to sRGB as part of the workflow for final output, but I'm starting to wonder if you're not seeing your aRGB images CORRECTLY only now and thinking there's a problem when in reality, the problem has been there all along and you're just now able to see it. Having not been in the drivers seat all along as you have it's hard to say, but in short, I'm starting to think don't have a problem at all.

One file, with an aRGB colorspace, looks dull and flat, just like I would expect. The other file, with an sRGB colorspace, has more contrast and saturation, just like I would expect. Why you haven't seen things this way before I don't know and I'm not sure anyone here will be able to explain it, assuming I'm correct.

 

[Keen Ai]

My workflow for the past 2 years has been this:

1) Import RAW from SD card into Lightroom
2) Apply custom import preset (designed by me), render previews...
3) Tinker with individual sliders in Lightroom until picture looks how I want it
4) Export to jpeg with embedded sRGB profile

5) View anywhere -- Infranview, Windows Photo Viewer, Web, Prints... all looks the same as it did in Lightroom (when displayed in the aRGB colorspace in develop module).

If the aRGB display within Lightroom should be duller and flatter, then here are two big nagging questions:
1) Why, for the past 2 years, has it looked exactly the same to me in sRGB after export, and
2) Why would the primary develop module in Lightroom display photographs in a color space that represents the picture NOTHING like how it will be exported and viewed by 99% of consumers?

I double checked the file information to make sure it's in sRGB, and it is:



I don't know what to say, other than the aRGB/sRGB argument makes no sense, still.

 

[Horoscope Fish]

I don't know what to say, other than the aRGB/sRGB argument makes no sense, still.

I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you... Hopefully someone else will stumble in with a better explanation.

 

[Keen Ai]

I just realized I've been mistaken on one thing. Lightroom develop module displays in Pro RGB, not Adobe RGB. This makes even less sense, since Pro RGB is wider than either aRGB or sRGB. The photos within Lightroom's develop module should look at their best, really, and here with my situation, they look dull and muted despite having just calibrated my monitor.

 

[Horoscope Fish]

I just realized I've been mistaken on one thing. Lightroom develop module displays in Pro RGB, not Adobe RGB. This makes even less sense, since Pro RGB is wider than either aRGB or sRGB. The photos within Lightroom's develop module should look at their best, really, and here with my situation, they look dull and muted despite having just calibrated my monitor.

I'm confused... Your colors look muted because (if I understand you correctly) you're shooting in aRGB. Your camera is set to shoot in RAW, using aRGB, correct?

Once you've taken the shot in aRGB it stays an aRGB file until you convert it to another colorspace. Just opening an aRGB, or sRGB, file in a wider gamut like Pro RGB does not bestow that file with that particular gamut.

Opening a file shot in the aRGB color space and then displaying it in an aRGB color space is like putting five pounds of flour in a five pound sack, it's a perfect fit.

Opening a file shot in the aRGB color space and then displaying it in an sRGB color space is like putting five pounds of flour in a three pound sack, there has to be some "clipping" to make it all fit.

But you're Displaying an aRGB file in a Pro RGB color space, which is like putting five pounds of flour in a ten-pound pound sack; the display space has a much wider gamut than what the file itself contains (it's still aRGB because that's how you took the shot). Opening an aRGB file in a Pro RGB color space does not convert that file to the Pro RGB color space and while you CAN convert the aRGB file to Pro RGB the colors will still look muted because you took the shot in aRGB. You'll still need to process the RAW file to bring out the proper saturation, contrast, sharpness etc.

 

[pforsell]

I'm confused... Your colors look muted because (if I understand you correctly) you're shooting in aRGB. Your camera is set to shoot in RAW, using aRGB, correct?

Once you've taken the shot in aRGB it stays an aRGB file until you convert it to another colorspace. Just opening an aRGB, or sRGB, file in a wider gamut like Pro RGB does not bestow that file with that particular gamut.

Opening a file shot in the aRGB color space and then displaying it in an aRGB color space is like putting five pounds of flour in a five pound sack, it's a perfect fit.

Opening a file shot in the aRGB color space and then displaying it in an sRGB color space is like putting five pounds of flour in a three pound sack, there has to be some "clipping" to make it all fit.

But you're Displaying an aRGB file in a Pro RGB color space, which is like putting five pounds of flour in a ten-pound pound sack; the display space has a much wider gamut than what the file itself contains (it's still aRGB because that's how you took the shot). Opening an aRGB file in a Pro RGB color space does not convert that file to the Pro RGB color space and while you CAN convert the aRGB file to Pro RGB the colors will still look muted because you took the shot in aRGB. You'll still need to process the RAW file to bring out the proper saturation, contrast, sharpness etc.

You have a long post, but it misses this important fact:
raw files do not have a color space. AdobeRGB or sRGB setting is only relevant to in-camera JPEGs.

Lightroom uses internally Prophoto RGB because that is the largest of them all and avoids clipping problems while making even extreme adjustments. A raw file exported from Lightroom (PSD, TIFF, JPEG) will be mapped from Prohoto RGB to a RGB space of user's choice.

 

[Keen Ai]

I shoot in RAW and the camera is set to sRGB, but as pforsell said, that doesn't matter, as it would only apply that color space to the resulting jpeg, if I were shooting jpegs. Shooting in RAW brings the full color spectrum captured by my camera's censor into the ProPhoto color space of LR's develop module. This should NOT be suddenly appearing dull and muted to me, even after all the adjustments I made (using my old monitor) to make it look perfect. I can understand it looking dull and muted at first, simply because all raw files look that way upon import with no adjustments applied. But everything in all my catalogues from the beginning of time is dull, muted, and total crap.
But I know if I printed one of them, it would look fine... because I already have done so. It just looks totally wrong in Lightroom.

 

[Keen Ai]

Here's another example... This photo I had taken months ago (shot in raw), edited in LR, exported with sRGB color space embedded. I stuck that resulting jpeg as my desktop background (right). On the background, it looks as I intended it to after the original edits. However, I pulled up that same raw file in the lightroom catalogue and viewed it with all the exact same adjustments applied that were used to create that image in the first place... and it's dull/flat/no contrast. I just don't know how this can be possible. If anything, the picture inside lightroom should have richer colors, because it's a ProPhoto RGB color space, whereas the color space embedded in the jpeg on my desktop background is sRGB.

 

[pforsell]

Here's another example... This photo I had taken months ago (shot in raw), edited in LR, exported with sRGB color space embedded. I stuck that resulting jpeg as my desktop background (right). On the background, it looks as I intended it to after the original edits. However, I pulled up that same raw file in the lightroom catalogue and viewed it with all the exact same adjustments applied that were used to create that image in the first place... and it's dull/flat/no contrast. I just don't know how this can be possible. If anything, the picture inside lightroom should have richer colors, because it's a ProPhoto RGB color space, whereas the color space embedded in the jpeg on my desktop background is sRGB.

There's more to this. My guess is that your monitor calibration has gone off-kilter somehow. Updated driver that reset calibration values back to factory defaults? Updated Adobe software that forgot calibration or other settings? Just a garden variety software glitch? A new software installed that decided to "make things easier" for you, by adjusting the calibration?

Your monitor is not capable of showing Prophoto RGB colors (well, nothing is, since ProPhoto contains imaginary colors). Most likely your monitor is either a standard sRGB monitor or a wide-gamut (10 bit) AdobeRGB monitor.

The larger ProPhoto RGB space will be mapped onto the smaller sRGB space of your monitor by your display hardware (and driver software). When something big is forcefully truncated into something small colors will not be represented accurately, especially if the calibration is not top notch.

Please see if this page contains any missing pieces for your puzzle:
https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/color-management.html

 

[Keen Ai]

Please see if this page contains any missing pieces for your puzzle:
https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/color-management.html

Thanks for the page, but I already visited that one. Has good info and I learned a bit, but nothing to fix my problem. I tried updating my graphics card driver to the latest version this morning, and still no fix. I am currently in e-mail correspondence with the Dell support tech who handled my monitor replacement. Updating graphics driver was the first thing they suggested. We'll see where it goes from there, but I may wind up having to just take everything in to the computer guru's in town.

 

[Keen Ai]

Update: Dell is replacing the monitor with a refurbished "old" version (same as my original). Hopefully this will fix the issue.