Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flash)

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

The pull out cards are convenient, and the flashes that do have the pullout cards are size about 1 3/4 x 1.5 inch (SB-800) above the flash head (or YN565 is 2 x 1 3/4 inch above it). That is all that is needed, and sometimes we don't have to pull them all the way out.

So you can cut one out from a white card or paper or white foamie, a couple of inches too tall, and use a rubber band around the head to simply hold it up there. Works as well as anything.
 

paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

I'll give it a try. Maybe I don't need to replace my SB-400 then?
 

paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

....do the flash head and white card both have to face vertical then?
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Sure, try it, and see what you think. :)

Bounce needs all the power we can get, and the SB-400 is not a high power flash. But it can do some things.
Guide Number ISO 100 is 21 (meters) / 69 (feet).

The YN468 II says GN 33 (meters) / 108 (feet), but it zooms 24-85mm, and it does not say at which GN 33 applies? No Guide Number chart? I've never seen that. So it is unknown, at least to me.

(YN565EX is GN 28/92 at 24mm, or GN 39/128 at 35mm, and up to GN 58/190 at 105mm zoom).

Comparing this 35mm GN 39 to the SB-400 GN 21 is 1.8 stops more power, for ISO or aperture or distance.

A SB-800 is same power as the 565, and I typically use ISO 400 f/5.6 on ten foot ceilings, but commercial 12 foot ceilings will need f/4 ISO 400. If standing... Lower ceiling are easier, but if down on the floor with the kids, it raises the ceilings. :) f/4 really goes better with a f/2.8 lens.

So the GN is suggesting SB-400 may need a couple more stops of ISO. Underexposure can mean either you just routinely need a bit of +EV flash compensation, but if the problem is limited power capacity, then compensation cannot do anything, it can make no change when maxed out.

The SB-400 will need to use higher ISO for bounce, maybe ISO 800. The problem with high ISO with flash is that it increases sensitivity to the orange incandescent ambient lights. If bright, using camera Manual mode for 1/200 second will still help keep it out better than will camera A 1/60 second. The TTL flash is still automatic flash in any camera mode.

....do the flash head and white card both have to face vertical then?


Yes, head aims up, but then the card faces forward and level. Card is just laid flat on top of the flash head, extending a bit past it, then the head is aimed up. Rubber band will hold it there.

dsc_5985.jpg

 
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paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

OK. If I'm honest, all the guide number, zoom and flash iso talk is above my understanding really. It may as well be written in Chinese, lol.

When shooting, I always just had the widest aperture and either 400 or sometimes 800 iso indoors when using flash in an attemp to try and limit down the needed flash power. My reasoning was based on having to throw away so many shots where too much flash was whitening out my child's face a bit too much for my liking. I don't really understand what flash zoom is for, as the SB-400 doesn't even have that function and its the only flash I've ever had, and I haven't a clue what guide number even means.

Its quite frustrating that the needed knowledge to understand it all is quite complicated, including all the settings for different situations. Its a shame flash's can't just be point and shoot with acceptable results. I suppose I felt the same way when I first upgraded from a point and shoot camera to a DSLR. Lots to learn. Its helps that I want to learn though.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

OK. If I'm honest, all the guide number, zoom and flash iso talk is above my understanding really. It may as well be written in Chinese, lol.

When shooting, I always just had the widest aperture and either 400 or sometimes 800 iso indoors when using flash in an attempt to try and limit down the needed flash power. My reasoning was based on having to throw away so many shots where too much flash was whitening out my child's face a bit too much for my liking. I don't really understand what flash zoom is for, as the SB-400 doesn't even have that function and its the only flash I've ever had, and I haven't a clue what guide number even means.

Its quite frustrating that the needed knowledge to understand it all is quite complicated, including all the settings for different situations. Its a shame flash's can't just be point and shoot with acceptable results. I suppose I felt the same way when I first upgraded from a point and shoot camera to a DSLR. Lots to learn. Its helps that I want to learn though.


OK, sorry, I was just trying to compare the flash powers of the different flash models, but I hit a problem on the 468, and I don't know about it. I though it was interesting that the manual did not cover that.

Well, the TTL flash system does meter itself, so it is almost point&shoot. Your approach of a wide aperture and ISO 400 or 800 is about what it takes for bounce. The TTL flash system will do what it needs to do to follow your actions. A stronger flash can do more of it.

I was just lamenting that our lenses wide open aperture is not its best aperture, and it can be a bit sharper if we can stop them down one stop. Not a huge thing, but there can be a difference. But one stop requires 2x more flash power, or 2x more ISO for the flash. So in that sense, a f/2.8 lens stopped down one stop to f/4, can sometimes be a little better than a f/4 lens wide open. Or, same f/4 lens stopped down one stop to f/5.6 can be better, but which is more flash power or ISO.

The SB-400 is not a strong flash, so there won't be much choice. Depending on ceiling height, wide open lens and ISO 800 ought to be about the right starting point for bounce. If a good lower 8 foot ceiling, ISO 400 probably works.

A good thing needed to know for bounce flash: When flash is in TTL mode, then when the camera Flash Ready light (lightning symbol in viewfinder) blinks three times immediately after the shutter closes, that is a warning that the TTL flash limited out on flash power, and picture was likely underexposed for that reason (not enough power). To prevent hitting that limit, higher ISO, or a wider aperture is required, to make it easier on the flash.
You can force this happen to see it once (to know it next time) by trying bounce at f/16 at say ISO 400. That can't work, so it will blink, and the picture will be underexposed. And the point is, you see the blink, and know what to watch for in the future.

If the picture was a little dark, but no blinking warning, then you just need to add a little +EV flash compensation instead.
But if it blinks, more flash compensation cannot work, the flash has no more power to give. This is how you know that. Except my Yonguo flash does not cause that. The Nikon does.

I think the comment about too much flash whitening the childs face too much referred to the severe overexposure problem with the 468?
That is abnormal, TTL should not work that way, that should not otherwise happen. You will like it when it works. Flash is the fun part. :)

It is true that sometimes TTL can be slightly off, typically a bit underexposed, typically due to the specific scene it sees in front of the camera - the way that scene meters. Then we simply dial in a little + EV flash compensation to make it look right, as desired.
Then the rest of the same flash session (in same situation) ought to go much better. And a little experience teaches us about a good probable starting compensation to routinely start with (I am speaking of small differences, and small compensations).



Flash zoom: We know that when we zoom in with our camera lens, we get a closer and more narrow view of the subject, a zoomed picture.

When we do that, and our flash is still the previous wide angle coverage, we are wasting flash power by illuminating wide area that will not show in our new narrow picture. Pointless to light the room when the lens only sees the chair.

So, many flashes automatically zoom their flash head reflector too, to track the lens zoom. They concentrate the wide flash power into a brighter more narrow beam, automatically, appropriate for our lenses new zoomed narrow view. This is more advantage for direct flash than for bounce.

The SB-400 does not do that, it has one fixed wide flash angle, regardless of how the lens is zoomed in ... so, there is no effective flash power increase when the lens angle is zoomed in more narrow.

There is quite a bit to pick up about flash, but it is all easy. If I am saying too much, more than needed, not helping, I can try to tone it down. :)
 
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paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

No, I enjoy reading your advice (even if it is advanced).

No I only had the 468 yesterday for the first time but its faulty and needs going back to Amazon. I've had a Sb-400 for a year or so.

I'd kinda developed a real dislike for flash on my child's face. I always think it makes her look unlike herself, ie its the first thing I notice when I look at the image. Obviously the exposure needs the light from somewhere otherwise the image will be too dimm. So I suppose flash is the lessor of the 2 evils. I just want a way to reduce what is in my opinion anyway an over flashed unnatural look (even if others see it as correct exposure). Its an art form I suppose. That's what led me to consider buying the diffuser dome to use on an off camera wireless speed light. I will try your vertical bounce flash with white card tip tomorrow. Blimey, my child must feel like a guinea pig, lol
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Good flash well done is simply wonderful, extremely natural, and fun. Ambient, you have to take what you find, but with flash, you can create what you want. And it is rather easy too. A good plan is helpful, but TTL exposure can be nearly point & shoot. The common problem is that beginners assume the camera ought to always get it right, which is a very bad groundless assumption, but they refuse to wade in and help - won't try. We do have to think about what we do, and not every one will . So don't shy away from flash compensation. Flash compensation, simply do what you see you need to do, what you want, when needed. It becomes very easy.

Good luck with the return. Amazon here is normally very helpful, but I worry the China thing could be complication.
 

paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

I understand about flash compensation. Trouble is, when I lower it I get a histogram that's only half full. This is despite 1/60th and widest aperture, iso 400 or 800 and ambient lights turned right up. It seems to me that the exposure needs as much flash as its asking for. The camera isn't automatically compensating for my minus flash EV and not boosting exposure another way via shooting settings.

I just don't like too much flash falling on the face from too short a distance away. This is why I'm beginning to think about other options.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong with my settings or technique?
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Histogram normally should be more than half full. It depends of course what the scene is, black cat in a coal mine, or polar bear on the snow are different. But most average scenes have a mix, some bright colors and some dark colors. The bright colors should be towards right edge, and the dark colors towards left edge. But that mix is hard for us to judge, and this is not the plan. The histogram is NOT a light meter. Virtually 100% of the point of looking at it is to make sure we are not overexposing and clipping at the right edge (we cannot fix clipping in post processing). Close to right edge is good, but touching it is bad (exceptions always exist). Short of using an incident flash meter, the better guide is how bright the scene looks on the rear LCD. Adjust compensation to make it look like you want it to look. All scenes don't have to reach the right edge. What matters is how it looks.

There are complications in everything. :) LCD monitors come set too d*** bright, which causes us to misjudge our photos, to adjust the photos for it, with the result that they look darker when they print properly on paper, or on other calibrated monitors. A calibrator for the monitor is a good thing. And then, I also set the Nikon camera LCD to -1 brightness to better match the calibrated monitor. Then I adjust compensation to look like I want it to look. Zooming in on that camera LCD preview can be a big help too, to see the important faces, etc.

All scenes do NOT necessarily require flash compensation. It is NOT about calibrating the hardware, it is only about metering the specific scene in front of the camera at this instant. We might think similar indoor scenes often need some certain amount, but fill flash in bright sun will be something different. It is about the scene, which we can simply see in advance, and with a bit of experience, can easily make certain predictions about compensation needed (white wall background, white bridal dress, black tuxedo, black direct flash background, etc).

But basically, we just watch results, and simply do what we see we need to do. Often a little compensation can help, but there are occasions needing none, or more. This becomes easy fast. It is necessary to pay attention to our work.

Complications, which I think are probably not a factor here, but ...
If your ISO is too high (Auto ISO normally is), or if your indoor lights too bright, Nikon is doing TTL BL mode, which becomes lesser strength fill flash in bright ambient (and of course, Auto ISO can make it be bright). A test picture indoors with the same 1/60 second ISO 400, but with the flash turned off, ought to be BLACK, and then the flash will behave. If that test picture is closer to normal exposure (which Auto ISO strives to do), then you are doing fill flash instead. Bounce may need a little more ISO, but Auto ISO is NOT a good thing with indoor flash. We can use camera M mode (Manual) which allows us to set any shutter speed, to be faster, 1/200 second Maximum flash sync speed. This keeps out the ambient better than 1/60 can. The TTL flash is always automatic in any camera mode.



Flash does fall off fast with distance. All lights do. Portrait faces are closer than the background, and inverse square law does apply. We don't realize this outdoors. The Sun in daylight is many millions of miles distant, so a few more feet (or miles) behind the subject is nothing. But the flash is quite close, and we certainly do realize the falloff behind. In an umbrella situation, we would provide another manual flash just for the background for that reason and purpose.

For direct flash, the background behind subject will necessarily be darker. Seeing that dark affects TTL metering too, direct flash does tend to overexpose the subject (trying to help the dark background it sees). Complications in that too, D-lens distance on TTL BL direct flash, etc.

However, short of adding that light on the background, bounce flash can be your best friend. One, it is much better softer light on the subject, but two, bounce also tends to illuminate the whole room more evenly. Because most of the (normal size) room is more equal distance from that bright spot on the ceiling. The background simply lights up back there with bounce. The higher the ceiling, the more true this is, but the more flash power is needed.

Bounce is definitely the good stuff for a hot shoe flash. But, it does require a bigger flash, with more power to do the job.
 
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paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Fascinating read ty. I have just bought a nissin di600 flash (unfortunently I couldn't afford a Nikon). I'm going to take some test shots indoors tomorrow evening and as suggested I'm going to use straight up bounce flash with the white card up too (should I leave the on flash EV at default? Its not a high ceiling) I assume the built in diffuser needs to be on too. I'm going to use ttl, aperture mode (widest is about f5 I think on my kit lens) and so i'll use that), and iso 400. Should be interesting to see the results. Should be great being able shoot portrait orientation too now as I couldn't with SB-400. I'll upload the results for you to see :)
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

That is sounding good. Nissin is a good name, and the Nissin manual is at http://www.nissindigital.com/files/EN_DI600_rev_1_1.pdf and page 21 has the Guide Number chart. Says GN at 24mm ISO 100 is 25 (meters) which is x3.28 = GN 78.7 for feet. ISO 400 values would be 2x the ISO 100 chart numbers.
At 24mm, that is about 1/3 stop more power than the SB-400.
But it also zooms, brighter if zoomed longer (see chart), It should zoom automatically to follow the lens zoom. The SB-400 did not. And it rotates too.

The on-flash EV is compensation for TTL. The camera also provides Flash Compensation. Use either, but the two should add to a final value if you use both. So don't forget the other is on too. :)

My experience is if you get the flash compensation about right on the first picture, then we can walk around in the room for more without paying much more close attention, same situation, same compensation. It's not all that hard. And the room should be the same tomorrow or next week too. :)

The pullout diffuser is only for wider coverage of direct flash of lenses wider than 24mm minimum zoom. Says 14mm. This dispersion spread reduces the brightness considerably, so you do not want it routinely. Probably never for bounce, even with a 14mm lens. The bounce path is already wider, it goes farther and spreads more (than direct flash). If then with a 14mm lens, if your room view shows darker corners, then maybe the pull out diffuser.

Bounce card only for bounce. This gives a little direct forward fill, and maybe most importantly, provides a sparkling catchlight in the subjects eyes... which adds vitality. Pay attention to the closeups of the desk anchors on your TV news...
Just don't over do the bounce card. :) Meaning - You will often see the cards direct shadow (typically under horizontal features). You should also see ceiling bounce shadows too (under things, like chins or collars). Don't let the direct shadow obliterate the ceiling shadows. The card is meant to be fill, not a direct main light. If up closer, you can pull the card only half way out. Do what you see you need to do.

Don't stand too close for bounce. Maybe six feet anyway, for a little better angle in to the face from the ceiling above. Zoom in all you want, but don't stand too close.
 
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paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Great. Glad I asked now :) Will put all these things into practice. Will upload some test results tomorrow.
 

paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Great. Glad I asked now :) Will put all these things into practice. Will upload some test results of my child tomorrow. I've attached the Nissin to my camera and done some test shots with my dog (my guinea pig of a child emily is peacefully asleep unfortunently, lol). Obviously a brown dog is different to a human face but im getting nice full histograms without any clipping. So my camera must be just fine and thus the yongnuo flash must of been faulty. Im using aperture mode f5.6 with the kit lens on my D3100, with iso 400, vertical bounce with white card up. Am I right in discovering that the bounce card can't be used if the camera is turned to portrait orientation?
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Glad it is going better. ISO 400 and f/5.6 seems a desirable choice, if it works.

Right, the bounce card cannot be used turned in portrait orientation. But again, you could instead attach like a business card, on that edge of the head which is the present rear side, with a rubber band.

There is some risk. The card will make a direct flash shadow. We do need to notice such things. Normally, with the flash directly above the lens, most of this shadow is hidden slightly lower and directly behind the subject. We normally don't see most of it, except like under raised horizontal arms, etc (where it has nothing to hide behind).

But up on end in portrait orientation, now the flash is out beside the lens, and then it will definitely make a visible shadow on the opposite side of the subject (if there is any wall there to show it, etc). This is what flash brackets are for, to keep the flash directly above the lens even after we rotate the camera, to hide that shadow. The bounce card would work then too (on a rotated flash bracket).

So adding the card may or may not be a problem. But losing the catchlights is normally a real loss.

If you have sufficient megapixels, another choice is to leave the camera horizontal, and then simply crop the image to be vertical. You do lose a lot of pixels however. Probably OK for video monitor images, or to print 4x6, but larger prints may suffer.
 
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paul_b

Senior Member
Re: Can 2 AF assist lamps be used at the same time? (on camera & off camera ext' flas

Thanks for taking the time to help me Wayne. Really selfless. The world needs more of that. Ty again buddy :)
 
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