Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Elements

BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

Thanks Jake...I never tried to shoot B & W in RAW, but I completely understand what you're saying and it is something I've learned and will have to store in my brain....I've learned one thing.....listen to Jake (he knows what he's talking about)!

If my wife heard you say that she'd warn you, "Sure, he knows his stuff, but the dangerous thing is that when he doesn't know anything the stuff he makes up still sounds plausible enough that you believe him!!" Saved my butt from a whipping many times growing up. :)
 

hark

Administrator
Staff member
Super Mod
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

Since this month's Monthly Assignment requires images to be converted to Black & White, I decided to revisit this tutorial that @BackdoorHippie created. I've never attempted a B&W conversion so I immediately thought of this thread. ;) Thanks again for posting this, Jake! :cool:
 

alex6speed

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

Granted, I'm late to the game, but thanks for this post. I was able to build upon a BW "converted" pic I had before.
 

Anco

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

I know it's not a recent thread but thanks for the info Jake. I can't believe I never thought of doing it this way, it makes so much sense.
 

BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

There are tools in LR and other B&W conversion tools that will do this for you, but I still come back to this on occasion when one filter manipulation isn't enough. I've learned a lot more about what LR/ACR will do for you on a grayscale conversion and it's fairly powerful, but doesn't quite provide you with the flexibility of color shifting, as this does. Just another tool in the chest.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

I've always found that the basic level of B&W conversion available in Lightroom and Photoshop to be adequate at best, simply desaturating the image and leaving you with an image that is a little flat and one-dimensional requiring you to then tweak it to the best of your abilities.
...

The most basic black & white conversion method is simply to take the color image and completely remove any saturation. As you can see, details that are very clear in the color image, like the net and line, are all but lost in the conversion, and playing with brightness and contrast will do little to bring them out.

"most basic might mean "simplest quickie kludge" (I think that was your point), but I would argue if the definition of "most basic" was intended as "normal and usual".

Without exceptional reasons why not, the correct tool (color to grayscale conversion) is the menu called Grayscale. It does exactly the right thing.
It uses the television NTSC specifications that say grayscale tone (Luminosity) is: Red x 0.3 + Green x 0.59 + Blue x 0.11.
Every pixel is computed this way. This is how B&W television was created. It is how B&W film works.

This makes the difference so that blue sky and red lipstick brightness come out in grayscale about the way the human eye distinguishes them. And the way that B&W film will reproduce them.
There is very much science in the simple Grayscale menu. It is not the simple way, it is instead the one correct complex scientific way.

Desaturate just dumps the color. Does not weight green greater than red, and red greater than blue (not like our eyes see it).

Or Channel Mixer offers much choice in how to modify the colors before grayscale, which is then creative editing, far from a normal "correct" conversion.

Grayscale menu does Luminosity = Red x 0.3 + Green x 0.59 + Blue x 0.11 (studied for years in B&W television). The three coefficients add to 1.0.

Here's a picture from my wifes little compact camera. Chosen here in a quick search to find something with all three colors.

img_0118.jpg

Original color


img_0118copy1.jpg

Desaturate (Photoshop CS6)


img_0118copy2.jpg

Grayscale menu (Photoshop CS6)

Just looking doesn't show a lot, so next here is an animated gif of the last two (2 second intervals): Click it.

img_0118.gif


Not a great example, but for example, in the color version, the red roofs and blue water seem about the same brightness. Not so in the Desaturate version, not the way our eyes see color.
Frankly, I prefer the color verson. :)

There are creative ways to make modifications to edit the color reproduction. If you want to be creative, have at it, its your picture.

But the Grayscale menu is the ONE CORRECT WAY to do it. That is what it is for.
 
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BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

Grayscale processing has come leaps and bounds, and this tutorial predates any kind of real, effective grayscale conversion being available in Elements, which is what I was using when I was taught this method (v7 or 8). As I've said in later posts, LR/ACR and the various B&W conversion tools make this level of work unnecessary, particularly with current releases, but there are still folks who still have no other choice.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

FWIW, here is a sample why RGB Desaturate is so poor.

grayscale_conversion_result.jpg


Don't know why we automatically assume clever geeks can outsmart the simple Grayscale menu, but decades of clever PhD geeks who actually know have refined the Grayscale menu procedure, to match how human eyes see the color. In Grayscale, we hope to see brighter colors brighter, and darker colors darker.

Lab Color is a little like color TV. TV is NOT Lab color, but both use the grayscale Lightness value. (Standard NTSC) Color TV transmitted the regular B&W TV picture (to still be compatible with B&W TV sets), with additional channels about the color hue. Lab Color is a little similar, it uses the Grayscale Lightness value (human eye perception) as one axis, and the a and b axis are the color hue.
FWIW, the two White Balance sliders (Temperature and Tint) are just the Lab a and b channels (excludes brightness, called Lightness).

Anyway, Desaturate of Lab color also retains the same accurate Grayscale menu tones. We could switch to Lab color and then Desaturate, or we could simply use the Grayscale menu provided for this purpose.

But Desaturate of RGB color completely destroys it. It just dumps the color without concern how the human eye perceives it.


All I am saying is "Do NOT sell the Grayscale menu short. It is THE accurate conversion".

But if you don't want accurate, and do want to shift the tones around creatively, that's a different story.
 
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hark

Administrator
Staff member
Super Mod
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

@BackdoorHippie I just tried going through this process but got stuck early on. I added the two Hue Saturation layers, but neither layer displays the wheel icon. I changed the blend mode to color for the one layer and was able to access the hue/saturation sliders, but when I clicked on the other layer, those sliders were gone. Not sure what I did wrong.
 

BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Re: Better B&W Conversion Using Multiple Hue/Saturation Layers in Photoshop & Element

@BackdoorHippie I just tried going through this process but got stuck early on. I added the two Hue Saturation layers, but neither layer displays the wheel icon. I changed the blend mode to color for the one layer and was able to access the hue/saturation sliders, but when I clicked on the other layer, those sliders were gone. Not sure what I did wrong.

No way for me to tell - when I hit that point I just go back to square one and start again Sometimes you have to double-click on the adjustment layer to get them back because if the layer is there so are the sliders.. To be honest, I haven't touched this method in ages. The color sliders in the B&W section Lightroom do about as effective a job, and you can use Camera Raw as a filter in Photoshop if you need to do it there. I learned this when all I had was Elements, and for folks there it's a great workaround.
 
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