Einteins vs Elinchrom RX series

[WhiteLight]

Have been going through this dilemma for a while now, and i have had a LOT of help from members here - Thank you.
I had decided on getting the Einstein series as i have heard a lot about them, and they are tried and tested.
These are why i am thinking i may not get the Einsteins-

a) International sellers (1st line - PCB EU & AU) charge a lot more and the USA site does not deliver internationally. Costs work out to almost 50% more.
b) buying from the USA site and then getting it here could be a hassle.
c) even if i did get it here somehow, if there are any issues, i would have to send the equipment back to USA & shipping charges obviously borne by me and they would ship back only to a USA address.
d) payments from international cards NOT accepted. Has to be a USA credit card/banking account.

Taking these into consideration, i decided to look at the Elinchrom series, which has some presence here.
After a bit of a research i have learned the RX series are good to start with & the ones lower than those are not worth investing in.

my budget for the entire lighting setup is between $1000 to $1500.

any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[WayneF]

Taking these into consideration, i decided to look at the Elinchrom series, which has some presence here.
After a bit of a research i have learned the RX series are good to start with & the ones lower than those are not worth investing in.

Makes complete sense to me, the international aspect is hard to ignore. Later service may never be required, but things do happen, like knocking over a light stand, etc.

The RX flashes would be compared to Alienbees, not to Einstein. Neither have the Einstein features. Both will vary color with power level, but which has been true of all flashes forever, it is nothing that cannot be handled. Just get and use a good White Balance card (Porta Brace for example), and use Raw (Adobe for example), and then there is no problem with studio sessions. Just put the White Card in the first test shot, and apply the same WB correction to all subsequent frames.

 

[WhiteLight]

i thought the RX were the 'Pro' series of lights, comparable to the Einsteins?
And that the D-lite, BXRi were the beginner series comparable to the AlienBees?

The BXRi series seems to now have been replaced with a more robust BRX series, which incorporates some of the features (just fancy IMO) from the pro FX series, like WiFi compatibility & interaction with tablets and PCs/MACs.

 

[WayneF]

I don't have the RX flash, I am just reading the specs, but I read it as Alienbees comparable. RX does include radio triggers, where Alienbees is optical slave. And is 240VAC. Both have better features like auto dump and fan cooling and faster recycle capability, but the RX is definitely "multi-voltage controlled", same as Alienbees, and nothing like Einsteins which include constant color or speedlight properties, which are huge differences, but which could be considered frills, at least in basic service. Just saying, it is very easy to get by without it, since all other flashes do.

 

[WhiteLight]

I don't have the RX flash, I am just reading the specs, but I read it as Alienbees comparable. RX does include radio triggers, where Alienbees is optical slave. And is 240VAC. Both have better features like auto dump and fan cooling and faster recycle capability, but the RX is definitely "multi-voltage controlled", same as Alienbees, and nothing like Einsteins which include constant color or speedlight properties, but which could be considered frills, at least in basic service.

Wayne, would you be looking at the D-lite RX series by any chance?
ELINCHROM - D-Lite RX 4
That would be the lower end of the spectrum.

the Style RX seems to be the 'pro' series-
ELINCHROM - Style RX 300

i am looking at the Style RX series, IF the new BRX series do not cut it
BRX - ELINCHROM - BRX 500

 

[WayneF]

Wayne, would you be looking at the D-lite RX series by any chance?

You are right, I guess I was, sorry. But, it is still not like Einstein. I downloaded the PDF manual, and it makes no mention of constant color, or even "color" (the word is not in the manual). Its speed is about 2x faster at full power than at 1/32 power, so it is voltage controlled, like Alienbees, a conventional monolight, and not at all like Einstein or speedlights. Which is NOT necessarily a bad thing.

It is digital, with a knob and LED display to set power level (as opposed to an analog slider). I have no knowledge about this one, but which on some past units, can cause problems when operating on a battery converter, because the battery cannot supply initial recharge voltage high enough to keep the flash electronics from rebooting every flash.
If battery converter operation might be of interest, this would be a good question to ask first.

 

[WhiteLight]

For battery powered units, they have a series called the 'quadra'
slightly different method of working, which maybe more like the Einsteins, but i may be wrong.. limited knowledge yet.
the quadra units seem to work faster compared to the regular BRX/RX series

 

[WhiteLight]

You are right, I guess I was, sorry. But, it is still not like Einstein. I downloaded the PDF manual, and it makes no mention of constant color, or even "color" (the word is not in the manual).

Here is a kit-
Elinchrom BRX 500/500 2-Light To Go Kit EL 20758KIT B&H Photo

The specs-

Maximum Watt/Seconds	500
Guide Number	f/90 @ 3.3' (1.0 m) @ ISO 100, with 48° reflector
Recycle Time	115V: 1.45 sec @ full power, 0.34 sec @ min power 230V: 1.13 sec @ full power, 0.36 sec @ min power
Flash Duration	Full power @ t0.5: 1/1,558 sec. 1/2 Power @ t0.5: 1/1,395 sec.
Color Temperature	5,410K
Flash Variability	5.0 f/stops: 1/16 - 1/1 (31 - 500W/s)
User Replaceable Flashtube	Yes
Changeable Reflector	Yes
Modeling Light Wattage	100W
Voltage Stabilization	Yes, +/- 0.5%
Flash Ready Indicator	Ready light, Switchable audible beep, dimming while recycling
Operating Voltage	90-260VAC, 50/60Hz
Sync Voltage	5.0VDC
Triggering	Sync cord, optical slave, built-in Skyport receiver Receiver range: up to 393' (120 m) outdoors, 131' (40 m) indoors
Circuit Protection	Fuse
Fan Cooled	Yes
Auto Dump	Yes
Dimensions	10.24 x 7.5 x 5.5" (26 x 19 x 14 cm)
Weight	5.5 lb (2.5 kg)

The color would be 5410 Kelvin

 

[WayneF]

Here is a kit-
Elinchrom BRX 500/500 2-Light To Go Kit EL 20758KIT B&H Photo

The color would be 5410 Kelvin

Maybe at full power level, it might be. Will you always be working at full power level? Better also buy a white card.

But its color will shift towards red at lower power. The lower the power setting, then the more red. All voltage controlled monolights do that, it is simply how flash tubes work (spectrum changes with current density through the tube). Except the Einstein. This is the Really Big Deal about the Einstein. But, it is not hard to work around this with any conventional studio light either, it has always been this way, and we get by.


The details are like this.

Voltage controlled monolights shift color to become more red at low power.
Here is an example:
Profoto vs White Lightning vs Elinchrom Results - Pro Photo HOME

I would not swear the numbers are precise (very difficult to measure well), but it is the idea. It is simply how life is (no matter what the specs might report). Most specs try to ignore it.

In contrast, camera speedlights are not voltage controlled. They always recycle to full voltage, and lower power levels are implemented by cutting off the current pulse very quickly, to not put out so much light. We used to call this thyristor type, but it is done today with a chip called IGBT (insulated gate bipolar transistsor). These become very FAST at low power (called speedlights), and since the decaying slow red tail is cut off, speedlights become more blue at low power. Speedlights are the opposite of monolights, in both color shift and speed duration.

Einstein is very special because it combines both designs, and a computer to control it, both methods used at same time, to offset one methods color shift with the other method doing the opposite shift. The goal is to be constant color regardless of power level. But it has two modes, one claims Constant Color at any power level. Other monolights cannot possibly make any mention of such a claim. The other mode abandons that constant color goal, and works only like a speedlight, becoming very fast at lower power levels.

 

[WhiteLight]

Haha.. That just makes the Einsteins more desirable...
Doesn't help me though!
Cos i am thinking IF i run into some problems with the Einsteins, even just ONCE, i would have been able to get a top of the line lighting system with the money i would spend in shipping it back & forth
that definitely is the only reason am now considering Elinchrom against the Einsteins.

 

[WhiteLight]

And yes, there appears to a difference of around 200K in the full range..
this for the RX600, which is one of Elinchrom's top of the line monoblocks

 

[WayneF]

that definitely is the only reason am now considering Elinchrom against the Einsteins.

I fully agree with you. Paul Buffs support is a legend in the USA, it simply does not get any better than that. But India is something else, and yes, he admits he totally ignores and refuses international, so it would seem to be the opposite then.

You can work fine with other monolights, or even speedlights. If you have four lights, main light up very close and low power, and fill back by the camera, much farther and higher power, even at a lower fill. And a background light at another level (color is not very critical back there, it is blue or brown or something anyway), and a hair light, which is a relatively tiny area on a different color subject... These four lights are all at different power levels, and each is a different color.

But the main light is the main light, and is adjusted to be at least twice as bright at the subject as the fill light.
You just meter a white card in your setups first test shot, and use that same correction on all subsequent images in the same same session, with same lighting. This only takes a few seconds, and is very precise and correct and satisfactory.

If you have a few minutes to see this idea, see ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) - YouTube

It becomes no big deal, easily solved.

And yes, there appears to a difference of around 200K in the full range..

Maybe 400K ? It depends, not all monolights are willing to go down to 1/32 power. 1/32 power is not really where you would choose to operate a monolight. I prefer a 160 watt second Alienbees B400 for main light, because it is never lower than 1/8 power.

And speedlights too, and we get by, but it is good to learn to handle the corrections.

 

[WhiteLight]

Already learned a lot.. Thanks Wayne.
Considering the situation as it is, do you think the kit i posted earlier would be good to consider?
This is a listing of all of Elinchrom's kits-
Monolight Kits | B&H Photo Video

i can of course just get the monoblocks & the rest of the accessories separately

 

[WayneF]

I cannot say much, I have never used an Elinchrom, but I know they are an extremely major brand internationally. I would have no concern about them, however here, Paul Buff is very dominate in the US (mass market, many actual pros probably buy high end).

Always look closely at the spec charts, at the features. Understand each line.

Features like Auto Dump - You can reach up and turn the power down a stop, and auto dump removes the higher voltage level from the capacitor, so the next flash is right. Without Auto Dump, you have to remember to manually waste a flash so it will recycle to the correct setting first. Not auto.

Recycle time... Small flashes are faster than big flashes. Low power is faster than high power. Better flashes are faster than cheap flashes. Recycle times like one second sure are nice to allow rapid shooting. When your subject peaks, the little kid is at their cutest, or the pretty girl just lights up, you don't want to wait 3 or 5 seconds between shots for the dumb flash to come ready. Speedlights at full power are poor in this regard.

Features like fan cooling. This can make a slight noise, but this removes concerns about shooting too fast for the cooling.

Flash duration - faster is better, about same effect as shutter speed. Big flash units are slow, small ones are fast. Flashes turned down to minimum power is maybe twice slower than full power (monolights, speedlights are the opposite). Point is, a big slow monolight turned way down to be usable is even slower than it was. A small monolight turned up to be usable is even faster. So my notion is that if we think we will need 300 watt seconds to handle most any situation that could ever come up, and then buying 1200 watt seconds just because we can - seems stupid. And certainly it is more red too. We gotta use that light we buy.

The cheap lights never have or mention any of this. The good brands always have it.

 

[gqtuazon]

Great discussion Wayne. I've only started using strobe (Einsteins E640) since the first week of May 2013 and I had zero experience with strobes. I've done some research here and there, asked some of my buddies and I originally was going for the Elinchrome kit that was suggested or recommended by Scott Kelby.

Elinchrom Scott Kelby's Light / Shoot / Retouch it Kit B&H Photo

The thing that also lead me more to the Einsteins is the cyber sync system over the Elinchrome skyport or pocket wizards.

Cybersync receiver is simple, doesn't require battery, and cheaper.


Einstein 025 by gqtuazon, on Flickr

Robert Mitchell who used to be an active member here, uses Elinchrome and might be able to provide better feedbacks based on his experience.

You can check out his website and contact him directly.

http://nikonites.com/other-photography-equipment/8683-softbox-recommendations-please.html#post86690

That still doesn't address the lack of warranty services of PCB other than the U.S.

 

[WayneF]

Great discussion Wayne. I've only started using strobe (Einsteins E640) since the first week of May 2013 and I had zero experience with strobes. I've done some research here and there, asked some of my buddies and I originally was going for the Elinchrome kit that was suggested or recommended by Scott Kelby.

I would like to have Einsteins, but I already had Alienbees, and feel no need to replace them. Color is not that much of a problem in practice - Or rather, it is certainly, and it makes a big difference, but White Balance is very easy to handle in studio situations. It's the "out walking around" stuff that's hard.

And certainly internationally, I would have to be interested in Elinchrom too.

I have mixed emotions about Scott Kelby. Without doubt he certainly offers lots of great information, but there is also absolutely no doubt that he is most of all about marketing.

scott kelby| B&H Photo Video

 

[Browncoat]

I have mixed emotions about Scott Kelby. Without doubt he certainly offers lots of great information, but there is also absolutely no doubt that he is most of all about marketing.

Which is undoubtedly a major reason why he is so successful.

What does everyone you know call those little ear cleaning swabs on a stick? Q-Tips. That's a name brand, not the actual product. They've done such a good job with marketing, ask 1,000 people what they clean their ears with and 999 of them are going to say Q-Tips, not cotton swabs.

Scott Kelby is one of the progressive photographers who embraced digital and ran with it, instead of running away from it and proclaiming that the sky is falling as several of his peers have done. If they were even half as good at marketing, they'd quit whining.

 

[WhiteLight]

I just read that most of Elinchroms today today is manufactured in India.
Especially the BXRi systems which are now replaced by the BRX system.
So cost wise i ma be looking at something way lower (assuming)
The pro level RX series though are said t be made in Switzerland.

I have narrowed it down to one of these options-

a) Einsteins (if i find some solution to the problems stated)
b) Elinchrom BRX 500/500 kit
c) Elinchrom 600RX/300RX kit

In that order of preference.
One issue with the 600/300 set is that the voltage is 120VAC, so not really sure if they would work here
Plus i don't really think i would need all that much light since this is 99% going to be for a studio setup.
But of course, there are some added advantages of the Pro level kits like faster Flash recyle & duration time.

Decisions decisions..

 

[gqtuazon]

I just read that most of Elinchroms today today is manufactured in India.
Especially the BXRi systems which are now replaced by the BRX system.
So cost wise i ma be looking at something way lower (assuming)
The pro level RX series though are said t be made in Switzerland.

I have narrowed it down to one of these options-

a) Einsteins (if i find some solution to the problems stated)
b) Elinchrom BRX 500/500 kit
c) Elinchrom 600RX/300RX kit

In that order of preference.
One issue with the 600/300 set is that the voltage is 120VAC, so not really sure if they would work here
Plus i don't really think i would need all that much light since this is 99% going to be for a studio setup.
But of course, there are some added advantages of the Pro level kits like faster Flash recyle & duration time.

Decisions decisions..

I thought they all have auto voltage.


Sent from my iPhone.

 

[WayneF]

I just read that most of Elinchroms today today is manufactured in India.
Especially the BXRi systems which are now replaced by the BRX system.
So cost wise i ma be looking at something way lower (assuming)
The pro level RX series though are said t be made in Switzerland.

I have narrowed it down to one of these options-

a) Einsteins (if i find some solution to the problems stated)
b) Elinchrom BRX 500/500 kit
c) Elinchrom 600RX/300RX kit

In that order of preference.
One issue with the 600/300 set is that the voltage is 120VAC, so not really sure if they would work here
Plus i don't really think i would need all that much light since this is 99% going to be for a studio setup.
But of course, there are some added advantages of the Pro level kits like faster Flash recyle & duration time.

Decisions decisions..

Supporting the workers in your own country always seems a good plan.

But to market the lights internationally, they simply must have 240 volt options which B&H in USA might not stock.
You do not want to deal with 120 volt units.

My concern about the 500 watt second unit is 1) that's a lot indoors, and 2) those specific models only turn down to 1/16 power (check specs).

I use a 160 watt second Alienbees B400 main light, in a large 40 inch double baffled softbox, within 3 feet of subject or less, turned down to about 1/16 power (which meters f/8), and with fill light, I shoot at ISO 100 f/10.
1/16 of 160 is 10 watt seconds. But 1/16 of 500 watt seconds is 31 watt seconds.