Another So-Called Professional Photographer

Status
Not open for further replies.

Browncoat

Senior Member
Really? Quality work is what professionals do(Over and over)..So called pros that get $$ for a job does not equate to being a pro if the work sucks and the person lacks the knowledge to continually produce professional quality pics...Not sure why you would disagree on that..

Professional | Define Professional at Dictionary.com

The word "professional" has many meanings, and they're all subjective, depending on context. When we think of a professional football player for example, they are easily differentiated from those at the college or high school level. We think of NFL players like Peyton Manning or Richard Sherman, players who earn millions of dollars. But there are many more players who earn the league minimum. They are still paid professionals, but their value is lower. The same is true for any number of sports. Like pro athletes, pro photographers are paid for their work.

We also think of the "professions", such as doctors and lawyers. People who have a great deal of education and expertise. When most people refer to a professional photographer, it's in this context. "Professional" is also a definition of conduct, people who carry themselves in a specific way in business matters. This also applies to photographers.

Are there not lousy lawyers, doctors, and accountants? Substandard plumbers, carpenters, and bricklayers? Have you ever heard of medical malpractice or mistrials? BBB claims? Have you ever hired a contractor, and then had to pay someone else to fix the job? All of those professions (and dozens more) have one thing that photographers do not have: a recognized set of standards. Bar associations, medical boards, and building codes. Isn't the internet littered with hundreds of thousands of bad "pro" photographers? These are people who are getting paid to take bad photographs. Do customers make the distinction? Clearly not, or the bad photographer wouldn't be taking bad photos for very long, would he?

This continued discussion is wearing on my last nerve. We've had it at least a dozen times here, and it rages on across the internet on every other photography forum. It's pointless.

There is no quality standard associated with professional photography. Sure, some organizations like the PPA have their silly little accreditation programs so some 'togs can feel special and put a few letters after their name on business cards. Big whoop, it means nothing in the real world. I often wonder if other artists have this discussion on their boards. One of these days, I'm going to stumble across a sculpture or watercolor forum and see for myself. "You're not a pro because you use Brand X clay" or "Only real pros use camel hair paintbrushes instead of synthetic." Does that happen? Anyone know?

All we can do is maintain our own quality standards and try to distinguish ourselves from everyone else. Putting labels on what someone else does isn't going to do a thing except generate another discussion on photography forums.
 

aroy

Senior Member
As said in previous posts
. Professional is one who gets paid, and amateur one who does not get paid.
. Quality has very little to do with professional. Good craftsmen will ultimately get paid more, poor ones will be at the bottom, unless they are well connected and the client does not mind.

Most of us in film days, rarely post processed, barring a few who touched up and cropped. Most sports photographers shoot in jpeg, as that is the fastest mode and requires no post - they are quite good at it. So if you can nail every thing in camera then there is no harm in shooting jpeg. Where RAW is useful is in correcting exposures, recovering shadows and changing white balance and jazzing the colours, but that is not always required in a wedding shoot, especially if you have good light (natural or artificial).
 

gqtuazon

Gear Head
As said in previous posts
. Professional is one who gets paid, and amateur one who does not get paid.
. Quality has very little to do with professional. Good craftsmen will ultimately get paid more, poor ones will be at the bottom, unless they are well connected and the client does not mind.

This quote still applies to date.

“Amateurs worry about equipment, professionals worry about money, masters worry about light… I just take pictures… ”

I am not going to speak for everyone but based on my encounter with pros, they are not as critical as enthusiast photographers. As long as their product delivers and can be a source of income, then that is how it is going to be.

We had a "pro" who shot our Christmas party a couple of years ago with his D3s and a Nikon 35-135mm push pull type zoom lens. I was able to download the images that he shot. They were all jpg and SOOC. Obviously, I was not impressed and didn't like the image quality. Knowing a little about photography, I was a critique and told myself that I could have done much better.

However, it is what it is. I can't blame them if they shoot jpg only since it does take a lot of processing time to edit hundreds and even thousand shots. I would probably consider that in the future since editing RAW files does suck when you are trying to get paid for it. I like editing RAW for my own pleasure. I certainly do not want to do this as a full time job. It takes the fun out of photography but that is just me.

Anyway, this is their website and they have a pretty good gig going on catering the Tokyo area.
Keyshots.com K.K.: Professional Photography Services in Tokyo
 

wud

Senior Member
I hope she is sitting on another forum, talking about how bad your images are. But I don't think she is..

I use my 105 macro for portraits all the time. Because it looks fucking spectacular. And it's way better quality than my 70-200 2.8.

What an idiotic thread this is.
 

sonicbuffalo_RIP

Senior Member
I hope she is sitting on another forum, talking about how bad your images are. But I don't think she is..

I use my 105 macro for portraits all the time. Because it looks fucking spectacular. And it's way better quality than my 70-200 2.8.

What an idiotic thread this is.

guess what wud....I used a 24-70 mm lens and my wife's family couldn't wait to get my shots on a flash drive. They loved them....go to the portraits section on this forum and you'll see some of them. By the way, the bil's gf doesn't seem to have a website.
 

wud

Senior Member
guess what wud....I used a 24-70 mm lens and my wife's family couldn't wait to get my shots on a flash drive. They loved them....go to the portraits section on this forum and you'll see some of them. By the way, the bil's gf doesn't seem to have a website.

And..? Even if you had made the most smashing shots ever, your attitude sucks. Fine to be disappointed if it turns out she made an awful shoot, but I don't think you are the one paying for it, so maybe wait and see what those who actually wanted her, says.

Thrashtalking a fellow photographer never made anyone look good.
 

sonicbuffalo_RIP

Senior Member
And..? Even if you had made the most smashing shots ever, your attitude sucks. Fine to be disappointed if it turns out she made an awful shoot, but I don't think you are the one paying for it, so maybe wait and see what those who actually wanted her, says.

Thrashtalking a fellow photographer never made anyone look good.

Okay....point taken.....but you weren't there....so you don't quite know what 'her' attitude was like either, do you? That's the thing...people on this forum seem to want to slam me, and I have thick skin, but there is no way I can really convey in any real way, the way she portrays and carries herself as a supposed 'pro' photographer. By the way, I guess I was a little burned by MIL when she said I could take pictures, but that she had a 'pro' photographer would be taking the shots. Now, if you saw the infamous picture sitting on the photo table that the 'pro' took, you'd know why I questioned her abilities. Tonight we'll find out what her photos look like. I just keep hearing the 'pro' say repeatedly during the shooting, "....whoops....I blew that picture out...."
 

Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
Okay....point taken.....but you weren't there....so you don't quite know what 'her' attitude was like either, do you? That's the thing...people on this forum seem to want to slam me, and I have thick skin, but there is no way I can really convey in any real way, the way she portrays and carries herself as a supposed 'pro' photographer. By the way, I guess I was a little burned by MIL when she said I could take pictures, but that she had a 'pro' photographer would be taking the shots. Now, if you saw the infamous picture sitting on the photo table that the 'pro' took, you'd know why I questioned her abilities. Tonight we'll find out what her photos look like. I just keep hearing the 'pro' say repeatedly during the shooting, "....whoops....I blew that picture out...."

What are you trying to prove?
What is your reward for putting her down?
Was anyone injured?

You seem to think that we are trying to put you down when we are just trying to make you see things in perspective. You mentioned that she was your brother in law's GF if I'm correct. Then, if the family want to give her a chance to do some paying work, I see nothing wrong with that, but maybe you do. You have to ask yourself if it isn't just your pride that was hurt a little because they asked her instead of you...

Is your ego that fragile? I can't answer, but from your attitude "against" her, it sure looks suspicious on this end.

Now it would be a shame if the pictures she took were all bad, but no one will be hurt but her pride. Maybe you should just let her judge her photos IQ compared with yours and then just let it go. You shouldn't let things trouble your creativity this way.

Just my opinion to give you another point of view.

Enjoy your Nikon!
 

wud

Senior Member
But maybe your mil knows this photographer. Maybe your mil saw her pictures and liked them.. I do understand if your a little disappointed that they didn't ask you if you would have liked to do the shoot, its always a weird situation when there is a photographer in the family.. I don't really like doing jobs for someone I know well, I am always afraid not to do my job good enough and then everything turns into awkward afterwards, but I try to remember they have seen my stuff and they still asked me..

Anyways. Be the better person. It will take you so much further. Maybe you could even have had a nice conversation, giving and getting tips, thats what I did this weekend when meeting another photographer at a show.
 

rocketman122

Senior Member
A lot of non pros yap all day. I HIGHLY doubt, the vast majority could handle the stress of standing in front of people, organize them, and shoot it well. its such a simple task in peoples eyes. but most would not be able to do it. in my shot there, none but one spoke a language I and them knew. so everything I did and said had to be translated.

so, you stand there, guide them with your hand, come stand, come stand there. turn your body more to me, you come a bit left, half a step towards me. I do it all the time, but I remember my first few times, I was sweating like crazy. today, I have no issue, setting everyone up, then change my mind, stop shooting walk over and rearrange them. or even move the whole group left or right. and I do it all the time.

try it, see if you can deal with it. its not a lot about photography. I promise you the photos will look like crap. you stand there and shoot a test shot, look at it, then its over or under exposed, or your gear isnt working well, and while under stress with people being VERY impatient looking at you to finish, you have to know how to get the proper exposure. blending the flash with ambient. its all good here in the forums, but standing in front of a group U WILL FORGET EVERYTHING U KNEW TECHNICALLY. you wont pay attention to the smallest details. the grooms jacket opening when hes with his arms too high hugging the person next to him. the bride who has her bra peeking out. the father who has his tie too loose around the collar and so forth. you will be so stressed you wont notice these things till you get home and look at the pictures.

when I do it, I make it look simple. I joke with them, and I do it with confidence and im assure of myself and people see that. I radiate it. so they are calm, and relaxed and trust me to guide them and take care of them for the best possible shot. they give me a hug and shake my hand and say thank you, you are a true pro.

so stop yapping like you could. stop with bad mouthing pros. good or bad. I highly doubt half could do a group family photo any better. try it and see how you handle the stress. add in very tight time constraints as well.

btw, did you get the pics?
 
Last edited:

sonicbuffalo_RIP

Senior Member
@rocketman122.....haven't got the pictures yet....but I know shooting isn't easy. I think she was too hard on herself by saying out loud all during the shoot that she had blown that shot'. If I were her, I would have kept those comments to myself, and then my confidence in her abilities would have gone up too. I know all photographers 'blow out a shot here and there'. I don't have a problem with that. But, if you're going to carry yourself as a professional, you don't tell all the subjects that you've consistently blown out a shot, or two, or three, or four. I could tell she was nervous. I just think she should have carried herself as I would expect a pro to. I'm sure, like I said, that most of her shots will turn out fine. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a peeing contest. To me, I was just stating that she didn't come across as being very professional. I guess I'm used to the professional photographers at Walmart. lol
 

aroy

Senior Member
One thing we tend to ignore is that photography is like any other professional service. You normally get what you pay for. In my career as an IT consultant I have come across payments as low as $100/day and as high as $15,000/day, expenses extra. This is to the consultant, the firm can charge three to four times that amount. Getting and delivering the best possible images requires extensive outlay in terms of support staff, lights and post processing. All this costs money, and the client has to pay. In one Indian wedding I attended (as a guest), there were 4 still and 2 Video photographers, with at least 8 assistants manning the light fixtures and two motorized booms. The team came in a few vans and had their own generator for emergency.

I have seen professionals who spray and shoot in jpeg as that way they get one shot right with no overhead, barring reviewing thousands of shots. They just select what goes to the client, and are ready for the next assignment. At the other end are photographers who have a team at shoot and post processing staff in the office. It all boils down to finances. If you are paid for all the staff and time, you will PP the images to the maximum possible, if you are paid low (and at times competition is fierce), you will try to avoid office work and try your best for the Out Of Camera Results.
 
Last edited:

rocketman122

Senior Member
@rocketman122.....haven't got the pictures yet....but I know shooting isn't easy. I think she was too hard on herself by saying out loud all during the shoot that she had blown that shot'. If I were her, I would have kept those comments to myself, and then my confidence in her abilities would have gone up too. I know all photographers 'blow out a shot here and there'. I don't have a problem with that. But, if you're going to carry yourself as a professional, you don't tell all the subjects that you've consistently blown out a shot, or two, or three, or four. I could tell she was nervous. I just think she should have carried herself as I would expect a pro to. I'm sure, like I said, that most of her shots will turn out fine. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into a peeing contest. To me, I was just stating that she didn't come across as being very professional. I guess I'm used to the professional photographers at Walmart. lol

blown like overexposed, not ruined (like I blew it), yes?

when im shooting my family formals I will either have an on camera flash at -2 stops (when I have enough ambient) and shoot like that or when everyone comes late, I set up my umbrellas, use 2 flashes behind them as well. one for backlit and one for the background. now I dont use a light meter. I basically eye it. I set everyone up and test a shot or two, and if its good, I say "nice. lets go!" or "YEA! looking good" and keep shooting but I do at times say "nope, not good" then go to the flashes and adjust the setting, go back and shoot again. even at times I say "crap, burnt" or "crap over" or "crap under" I dont see the big deal.

by your description she doesnt sound like a pro but I tell you how I handle family formals. before I even shoot (usually my camera is on the side) and when they are all standing, I go to each and everyone spend a moment with each and look them over. like a drill sergeant in the army. I fix their jacket , make sure their shirts are tucked in. I will even ask if I can re-knot their tie if it looks like sh**. but I smile, give them a thumbs up gesture with a " yea, looking good" or "nice" comment. they stay calm and trust me completely, they know im here to look out for them, but more than that I get personal with them. then I walk away grab my camera and start shooting. simple as that. after I did the look over and set them up, Im now in my zone for the photos. now I care about the technical part. so I spent a short personal time with them, set them up, now I shoot. I never go straight into shooting.

and from what you see here, a lot is not about photography. be patient. see the photos. hopefully she edited them so theya re consistent.
 

aroy

Senior Member
One thing nice about shooting RAW is that with modern DSLR sensors you have quite a bit of exposure latitude. I can usually recover 1EV overexposure and upto 3EV under exposure perfectly. That gives me a lot of peace of mind as I do not have to be extremely paranoid about exposure (Now Slide Film was where you had to get it spot on, no recovery possible, hence bracketing was popular). If you are shooting jpeg; and do not want to bother with post processing; then it is wiser to do a 3/5 shot bracket.
 

sonicbuffalo_RIP

Senior Member
One thing nice about shooting RAW is that with modern DSLR sensors you have quite a bit of exposure latitude. I can usually recover 1EV overexposure and upto 3EV under exposure perfectly. That gives me a lot of peace of mind as I do not have to be extremely paranoid about exposure (Now Slide Film was where you had to get it spot on, no recovery possible, hence bracketing was popular). If you are shooting jpeg; and do not want to bother with post processing; then it is wiser to do a 3/5 shot bracket.

That's really the kind of responses I need....cc about how to shoot like a pro does. I'm no pro, but am willing to learn from a real 'pro'. Thanks @aroy and @rocketman122
 

hark

Administrator
Staff member
Super Mod
But maybe your mil knows this photographer. Maybe your mil saw her pictures and liked them.. I do understand if your a little disappointed that they didn't ask you if you would have liked to do the shoot, its always a weird situation when there is a photographer in the family.. I don't really like doing jobs for someone I know well, I am always afraid not to do my job good enough and then everything turns into awkward afterwards, but I try to remember they have seen my stuff and they still asked me..

Anyways. Be the better person. It will take you so much further. Maybe you could even have had a nice conversation, giving and getting tips, thats what I did this weekend when meeting another photographer at a show.

Mai's comment is spot-on. This isn't about photography--this is about family. It sounds like the photographer is the girlfriend of your MIL's son; therefore, your MIL's son trumps you since you are the son-in-law. If you've expressed even the slightest bit of attitude about all of this with your family, you really should back off and humble yourself, Chris. Perhaps this photographer is pursuing a career as a pro, and although she might be very green, everyone needs to start somewhere. Usually friends/family is the starting place. Perhaps the girl isn't the one calling herself a pro--maybe it is your MIL? Have you expressed interest to your family about becoming a semi-pro or pro yourself? If not, perhaps the girl has. You might want to pick and choose your battles--and I'd say this shouldn't be one of them. ;)
 

sonicbuffalo_RIP

Senior Member
@rocketman122: The lady didn't have an off camera flash at all....and I was dumb enough to leave mine at my MIL's house. I should've known better since I have been to SIL's house many times and pretty much knew it was dark even in the daytime over in their backyard. I realized I should have had it the moment I walked back there, but it was too late. I wasn't fully prepared. I couldn't believe she didn't have an off camera flash. She had 2 camera bodies but no off camera flash! She did use her pop up flash a few times.
 

Pretzel

Senior Member
POP UP FLASH? Wait, I'm not going there... too much pee on the fence already.

*ahem*

I just wanna see the photos. Proof's in th' puddin', so they say.

*coff coff*
 

Eyelight

Senior Member
It's refreshing to watch a thread in a board on the internet where people don't necessarily agree, but the conversion continues in a mostly considerate fashion.

All the points are good points from the perspective of those who point.

Photography is just that way. No were else is life reflected so well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top