White balance adjustment

titoPhoto

Senior Member
I will use a flash with umbrella do I need to WB sampling on my white umbrella while it flash (toward light source) or should I use something white with the flash or just something white?

How often do you change WB settings?

When you shoot outside with fill flash how do I adjust WB?
If it's sunny and I adjust my WB. Then clouds, do I have to readjust wb?
Thanks
 

PapaST

Senior Member
You will get more educated answers from the other members soon I'm sure. I recently shot with umbrella/flash outdoors and just made my adjustments in Post. Shooting RAW gives you a bit more leg room (at least enough for my needs). I typically shoot in auto-WB.
 
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Needa

Senior Member
Challenge Team
I will use a flash with umbrella do I need to WB sampling on my white umbrella while it flash (toward light source) or should I use something white with the flash or just something white?


If you want a custom white balance. set it from a white card where the subject would be.

How often do you change WB settings?

Usually only for indoor flash and then only sometime depending on the existing lighting.


When you shoot outside with fill flash how do I adjust WB?
I leave it in auto.


If it's sunny and I adjust my WB. Then clouds, do I have to readjust wb?
Thanks

Only if you want to. Most of the time i shoot in auto white balance and adjust if I want in post processing of raw the files.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Paging WayneF to the white courtesy phone!

Well, I would reference the page at Easy White Balance Correction, fix with or without Raw :)

I think (assume) the original question was about camera Custom White Balance. In that case, yes, aiming at the light source is necessary, but I am not aware that camera Custom can handle flash.

The easy way is to use raw, and include a white balance card AT THE SUBJECT in the first test shot. Then all session pictures can be adjusted from that, with one click.

We should correct white balance for every session. White balance varies with flash power level. Example of this shown at the link above.
 

Needa

Senior Member
Challenge Team
Wayne

Could you explain the aiming at the light source reasoning and which method of custom WB would be used, direct measurement or from a photo.

I do agree with the easiest method.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Wayne

Could you explain the aiming at the light source reasoning and which method of custom WB would be used, direct measurement or from a photo.

I do agree with the easiest method.

Thanks for the correction, I think I mispoke about at the light source. There is an ExpoDisk that is aimed at the light source.

Custom is also called Preset manual WB, The camera doing Custom is aimed at a white or gray card in the same light as the subject. Card should fill the frame, but good focus is not required, it's instead about the color.

I think the working definition of Custom White Balance is the system done in the camera, described in the camera manual, as Custom WB. WB of course can be done directly in photos too, I merely quibble about calling that photo method as Custom WB. Name is already taken. :)

First reviewing the most basic WB ideas...

If we have any photo object of color, lets say a white dish, it has a certain color, which is the color that we want to see it. But light is colored too, incandescent bulbs are orange, clear blue sky is blue, and direct sunlight is what we call white. All of these sources vary their color in some degree, flash too. A light that is say yellow can make the subject which is say white, appear to be more yellow, so we see a color tint, and maybe it looks dingy. But we can correct it.

A quirk of our human brain is that it tries to do automatic white balance for us, so that when we come in from outdoor sunlight into incandescent light, we simply do not notice that incandescent light is orange. We are not even aware of a problem. We see what we expect to see, what we imagine we see. But it definitely is orange, and the dumb camera will capture that orange color, unless we correct it.

White balance is correction to modify the photo color in a way that matches the color of the light, specifically to offset the lights tint, to make its color effect be zero. WB is about the light, not about the subject. And it is a very good thing when we can get a human brain to operate the camera too. :)


There are a few ways to do this WB correction, to make our photos better (more accurate color).
In all cases, the WB tool or method has to be in THE SAME LIGHT as our subject, in order to correct that subject. It has to involve the light we want to correct. It is only about the light.

Cameras have the few standard WB choices, Incandescent, Daylight, Fluorescent, Cloudy, Shade, etc.
These are just approximations, guesses about what the light color could be, expected to be, but rarely actually is. Ballpark, better than nothing.

Cameras have Auto WB, which tries to examine the photo result and make it look better color, but it is a dumb computer chip that cannot recognize the subject, and has no clue about the light source, and no brain to even think about it. The result can be good, or more likely ballpark, but it can also be dumb.

The camera Custom White Balance is a special menu, where the camera is aimed at a white balance card in the same light as the subject.
The camera diffuses it and measures it in a way that it can make it be neutral, or colorless, or white. Then using that same Custom WB (in that specific scene and session in the same light), our photos come out in good color. It works because the card is actually neutral color (no color cast of its own).

Custom is a good system if you are shooting JPG (it corrects before the JPG step is done, i.e., has full working range), but it is maybe a bit fiddly to do.
However, IMO, Custom would seem a pointless system if shooting raw, because WB is not in raw yet. We have no place to go with it (there may be some ifs and buts, but there are also better ways to do it.)
I shoot raw, so I don't actually do Custom WB.

There is a too-expensive device sold called ExpoDisk, which is a filter put on the lens (for only this test shot) to diffuse the light, and it is aimed at the light source, which sort of creates equivalent of a gray card, and so basically does what Custom already does. Is for if the camera did not offer Custom maybe? Custom is a recent thing, Exodisk is older.

Another very common system is to simply place a white balance card with the subject (in the SAME light), and take a test shot of it. Then software offers a tool to click on that white card in the photo, and it says to the computer "This spot is neutral, make it be neutral" (meaning no color cast), and it does. The human brain helps the computer to find the right solution, to choose the correct solution. Then the computer is fantastic about implementing it. This is a very good way, and I personally see no reason to consider anything else.

(speaking Adobe, others are mostly unknown to me). Raw editors offer a way to easily apply this WB correction to all couple of hundred session pictures in the same one click. And raw offers more range to do it. Some raw software does this same procedure also for JPG images (same lossless edits), but JPG has more limited range, and in extreme cases, raw can work better (and again, there is no WB correction in raw until we do this).
So I think raw and a white balance card is the best, fastest, and easiest way to correct our pictures. Seems flawless to me, a whole new world of photography.

Some use a 18% gray card for this same purpose (as a WB card), and it works, but it is pretty dark, and it is spec'd to be 18% reflection, but which says nothing about the neutral color. Most are pretty close to neutral, and it works pretty well, but I see no point of not using an actual WB card. The card I like is a Porta Brace White Balance card, $5 at B&H. I also have a couple of the more expensive WhiBal brand cards (light gray), and nothing at all wrong with them, but I tend to use the Porta Brace card.

Many of our scenes naturally contain some white object, actually white, intended to look white (instead of off-white). Maybe signs, or t-shirts, or polka dots on pajamas. Clicking those usually works pretty well. Like the 18% card, we may not be certain they are exactly neutral color, but they are white, and far better than nothing. If it works, it works. If not, we can Undo. Lots more at Easy White Balance Correction, fix with or without Raw
 
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titoPhoto

Senior Member
I put my camera to picture control to portrait. And I got an expoDisk. It was impossible to have the WB correct, everything would be too cold. This morning I set my cam to picture control to standard setting, and my WB is correct. Could it be my camera, it's a D3100?

Question #2.
I use Lightroom, is there a way to bring back the picture control to standard from portrait?
 
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Needa

Senior Member
Challenge Team
Thanks for the correction, I think I mispoke about at the light source. There is an ExpoDisk that is aimed at the light source.

Custom is also called Preset manual WB, The camera doing Custom is aimed at a white or gray card in the same light as the subject. Card should fill the frame, but good focus is not required, it's instead about the color.

I think the working definition of Custom White Balance is the system done in the camera, described in the camera manual, as Custom WB. WB of course can be done directly in photos too, I merely quibble about calling that photo method as Custom WB. Name is already taken. :)

First reviewing the most basic WB ideas...

If we have any photo object of color, lets say a white dish, it has a certain color, which is the color that we want to see it. But light is colored too, incandescent bulbs are orange, clear blue sky is blue, and direct sunlight is what we call white. All of these sources vary their color in some degree, flash too. A light that is say yellow can make the subject which is say white, appear to be more yellow, so we see a color tint, and maybe it looks dingy. But we can correct it.

A quirk of our human brain is that it tries to do automatic white balance for us, so that when we come in from outdoor sunlight into incandescent light, we simply do not notice that incandescent light is orange. We are not even aware of a problem. We see what we expect to see, what we imagine we see. But it definitely is orange, and the dumb camera will capture that orange color, unless we correct it.

White balance is correction to modify the photo color in a way that matches the color of the light, specifically to offset the lights tint, to make its color effect be zero. WB is about the light, not about the subject. And it is a very good thing when we can get a human brain to operate the camera too. :)


There are a few ways to do this WB correction, to make our photos better (more accurate color).
In all cases, the WB tool or method has to be in THE SAME LIGHT as our subject, in order to correct that subject. It has to involve the light we want to correct. It is only about the light.

Cameras have the few standard WB choices, Incandescent, Daylight, Fluorescent, Cloudy, Shade, etc.
These are just approximations, guesses about what the light color could be, expected to be, but rarely actually is. Ballpark, better than nothing.

Cameras have Auto WB, which tries to examine the photo result and make it look better color, but it is a dumb computer chip that cannot recognize the subject, and has no clue about the light source, and no brain to even think about it. The result can be good, or more likely ballpark, but it can also be dumb.

The camera Custom White Balance is a special menu, where the camera is aimed at a white balance card in the same light as the subject.
The camera diffuses it and measures it in a way that it can make it be neutral, or colorless, or white. Then using that same Custom WB (in that specific scene and session in the same light), our photos come out in good color. It works because the card is actually neutral color (no color cast of its own).

Custom is a good system if you are shooting JPG (it corrects before the JPG step is done, i.e., has full working range), but it is maybe a bit fiddly to do.
However, IMO, Custom would seem a pointless system if shooting raw, because WB is not in raw yet. We have no place to go with it (there may be some ifs and buts, but there are also better ways to do it.)
I shoot raw, so I don't actually do Custom WB.

There is a too-expensive device sold called ExpoDisk, which is a filter put on the lens (for only this test shot) to diffuse the light, and it is aimed at the light source, which sort of creates equivalent of a gray card, and so basically does what Custom already does. Is for if the camera did not offer Custom maybe? Custom is a recent thing, Exodisk is older.

Another very common system is to simply place a white balance card with the subject (in the SAME light), and take a test shot of it. Then software offers a tool to click on that white card in the photo, and it says to the computer "This spot is neutral, make it be neutral" (meaning no color cast), and it does. The human brain helps the computer to find the right solution, to choose the correct solution. Then the computer is fantastic about implementing it. This is a very good way, and I personally see no reason to consider anything else.

(speaking Adobe, others are mostly unknown to me). Raw editors offer a way to easily apply this WB correction to all couple of hundred session pictures in the same one click. And raw offers more range to do it. Some raw software does this same procedure also for JPG images (same lossless edits), but JPG has more limited range, and in extreme cases, raw can work better (and again, there is no WB correction in raw until we do this).
So I think raw and a white balance card is the best, fastest, and easiest way to correct our pictures. Seems flawless to me, a whole new world of photography.

Some use a 18% gray card for this same purpose (as a WB card), and it works, but it is pretty dark, and it is spec'd to be 18% reflection, but which says nothing about the neutral color. Most are pretty close to neutral, and it works pretty well, but I see no point of not using an actual WB card. The card I like is a Porta Brace White Balance card, $5 at B&H. I also have a couple of the more expensive WhiBal brand cards (light gray), and nothing at all wrong with them, but I tend to use the Porta Brace card.

Many of our scenes naturally contain some white object, actually white, intended to look white (instead of off-white). Maybe signs, or t-shirts, or polka dots on pajamas. Clicking those usually works pretty well. Like the 18% card, we may not be certain they are exactly neutral color, but they are white, and far better than nothing. If it works, it works. If not, we can Undo. Lots more at Easy White Balance Correction, fix with or without Raw


Thanks for the response.
 

Needa

Senior Member
Challenge Team
I put my camera to picture control to portrait. And I got an expoDisk. It was impossible to have the WB correct, everything would be too cold. This morning I set my cam to picture control to standard setting, and my WB is correct. Could it be my camera, it's a D3100? I do not shoot raw.

Question #2.
I use Lightroom, is there a way to bring back the picture control to standard from portrait?

May be some else can help you with your question, I shoot in manual mode and use Darktable to edit.

Try raw.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
I put my camera to picture control to portrait. And I got an expoDisk. It was impossible to have the WB correct, everything would be too cold. This morning I set my cam to picture control to standard setting, and my WB is correct. Could it be my camera, it's a D3100?

Question #2.
I use Lightroom, is there a way to bring back the picture control to standard from portrait?

If shooting raw images, you simply select whatever Picture Control you want in Lightroom, while you can see and choose the result. Lightroom will offer the same choices as the camera, if raw. But if JPG, Picture Control in Lightroom is already selected in the camera. You might still tweak the colors, but not via Picture Control. In JPG, picture control always just says "Embedded", meaning already selected in the camera.

It is probably your procedure and settings, not the camera.

Picture Control is not the same thing as white balance. White Balance adjusts between yellow to blue, for the purpose to match the light on the scene, to make colors correct and natural. Picture control shifts colors (like reds and greens and blues) to exaggerate them, like Vivid or Landscape, or not, like Neutral or Standard.
 
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RocketCowboy

Senior Member
Wayne beat me to it, but it comes down to whether you're shooting raw or jpg.

The Picture Control presets only apply to the jpg image rendered in camera. Some raw tools can read and apply similar effects, but editing in raw gives greater control over what you can do without effecting IQ.
 
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