Random blurry images with manual 105 f/2.5 Nikkor-P on D3300

I recently purchased a vintage 105 f/2.5 Nikkor-P (Sonnar-type) for better quality portraits on my D3300. Given that it is a non CPU lens, I can only use it in the manual program (M) mode. While it takes an occasional great shot, I have noticed some peculiar performance issues with it that I wanted to bounce off fellow Nikonites for insights to make sure the lens is not defective. Note that most of my shots have been with subjects (mostly my daughter) within 15 feet.

1. For close-in shots wide open or stopped down to 5.6, even if the viewfinder shows a crisply focused image, the photos are often a bit soft. I'm not sure if that is a characteristic of the lens. When I hit the shutter, I've occasionally felt the focus ring move very slightly. It doesn't seem enough to throw off focus, but I wonder if it is a symptom of something else or a common characteristic of these older lenses. I even looked into the diopter correction on the camera viewfinder to make sure it wasn't my eyes, but that didn't seem to be the issue.

2. On a couple of occasions, I activated the onboard flash to allow a faster shutter speed for a sharper image. However, I generally ended up getting extremely blurry and overexposed images, despite having focused crisply on the subject via the viewfinder. I'm totally confused on why the flash would result in an out of focus image, but hoping there is a simple explanation. Could it be a combination of camera settings that is causing this behavior, or is it a symptom of a lens defect or characteristic? (I did manage to get one extremely sharp and decently exposed image with flash turned on, but that was the exception).

3. Could you share any insights on getting more consistent image sharpness from this older lens? Or does this sound like a bad lens that needs to go back?

Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts!

The first thing would be to post some of the images you are complaining about so we can see the EXIF data.

Second, that lens was a very wise choice! They are so inexpensive yet that 105mm 2.5 lens was the king in its day. I have the same lens and it only cost $75 (but also have the newer AF 105mm 2.8, so hardly use the manual lens anymore). Blurry pics are not a characteristic of this lens.

Third, are you verifying focus with the little green dot in your viewfinder? IOW, does the camera agree that your shot is in focus before you shoot? Maybe what you are seeing is not the same as what the sensor is seeing, so see if the camera's internal focusing system (even with a manual lens) agrees that the shot is in focus. You could also put your camera in live mode so the image appears on the back screen before you shoot, then you can zoom in on that screen and adjust your focus. Live mode is a more accurate focusing method than the viewfinder because Live Mode is exactly the same thing that the sensor is seeing.

I have no idea why your focus ring would move on a manual focus lens when you shoot, but JUST IN CASE make sure your camera body is switched to manual focus.

Fourth, I suspect that your flash pictures are bright and blurry because you have manually set your aperture and shutter speed, but once the flash is turned on it might be overriding your manual shutter speed settings and reducing the shutter speed to 1/60th or 1/200th or whatever is the sync speed on your body. Also, is Auto-ISO turned on? It's so easy to activate that accidentally and it just wreaks havoc with flash pictures.

Finally, I would set up some shot with a different lens, getting the focus, exposure, flash, ISO, and aperture correct. Once you are satisfied with your result, switch to the manual lens and use the exact same settings. That will tell you if something is wrong with the lens.

It could be that your aperture blades are not closing properly on the new lens, so it's shooting wide open all the time. (The blades are supposed to close to the chosen aperture right when you snap the pic.) That would also explain overly bright pics and soft pics. Set the lens on f22 and use your finger to manipulate the little tab on the back of the lens to see if the blades close all the way down, or see if they feel sticky even if they do close.

The focusing screen that comes stock in lower-end Nikon DSLRs is pretty useless as far as manual focusing. I think Nikon assumes that the vast majority of those who have the lower-end models will never use manual-focus lenses on them, and the viewfinder is optimized to give the brightest, clearest possible view regardless of focus. That's fine if you only ever use autofocus, but when you focus manually, you don't want anything to be clear that isn't in focus.

If you're going to use manual-focus lenses on a D3300, then you really need to install an aftermarket focus screen.

Go to eBay and do a search on these keywords: bresson focus screen D3300

The item you want costs around $21 ± a few cents.

Here's a pic I shot with the same lens. You can see the depth of field is very shallow and I just barely missed his eyes, but the hair on this head is sharp in one area:

Blade Canyon said:

Here's a pic I shot with the same lens. You can see the depth of field is very shallow and I just barely missed his eyes, but the hair on this head is sharp in one area:

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That say's it's with a D600??

gustafson said:

I recently purchased a vintage 105 f/2.5 Nikkor-P (Sonnar-type) for better quality portraits on my D3300.…

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Kevin H said:

That say's it's with a D600??

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Yeah, something is rather odd, here. A D3300 wouldn't produce pictures EXIF-tagged as having come from a D600.

Nothing odd here, just some confusion on who is the OP I'm on a D3300, Blade Canyon was just sharing his shot with the same lens taken on a D600.


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gustafson said:

Nothing odd here, just some confusion on who is the OP I'm on a D3300, Blade Canyon was just sharing his shot with the same lens taken on a D600.

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Yes, that appears to be what has happened. Easy mistake to make, losing track of who posted what.

This raises another question.

A “Nikkor-P” lens would be an old non-AI lens. (The “-P” is part of a designation system that was discontinued in 1974, a few years before AI came out.) Nikon's statements to the contrary notwithstanding, non-AI lenses can be used on lower-end models like the D3300; but I would expect that the D600 would be one of those models that is at risk of being damaged by trying to use a non-AI lens on it. I'm thinking that either @BLAdeCanyon does not, in fact, have the same lens, or else he has one that's been AI-converted.

Thanks for the awesome insights! As for the questions:

- Yes, I've been using the green dot confirmation along with the viewfinder image, and they usually coincide. For very close-in shots, they can be a little off, and I've been going by what I see in the viewfinder.
- As far as the M mode, I assumed it would inherently disable any automatic settings such as auto ISO. However, I will go back and check that I'm not inadvertently giving the camera control. There's no focus motor on the D3300, so I'm good there. As far as the focus ring moving, could it possibly be due to the camera changing the aperture when the shot is being taken, or due the closing of the shutter itself?
- Great point on the effect of using flash on the shutter speed, even in manual mode. Will look into it.
- The aperture blades seem to open and close OK, but I will double check.
- Bob, thanks for the tip on the manual focusing screen, I have been thinking about it. Have you made the swap, and are there any downsides to it?

Based on the inputs, one of my suspicions is that I may have not grasped the shallowness of the depth of field of this lens, and may be working way too near the close focusing limit where it is likely even shallower. Thus focusing may be very sensitive to movement on part of the subject or myself toward or away from the focusing plane. Am going to try stopping down to f8 or so and move further away from the subject to see if that gives me consistently sharper photos. I imagine there is a sweet spot for this lens in terms of aperture and subject distance where it is more idiot proof I'm attaching a few photos to show you some of the focusing issues, as well as the one photo where I seem to have gotten it right with the flash.

gustafson said:

- Bob, thanks for the tip on the manual focusing screen, I have been thinking about it. Have you made the swap, and are there any downsides to it?

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Yes, I have, and as far as I can tell, no downside.

It's still a bit tricky getting the focus right, under narrow depth of field conditions, but it's a massive improvement over the stock screen.

As a matter of personal taste, even when working with my stock lens, in autofocus mode, I find it more satisfying to see the subject come into focus as the autofocus does its thing, rather than seeing the whole view in focus all the time.

gustafson said:

Based on the inputs, one of my suspicions is that I may have not grasped the shallowness of the depth of field of this lens, and may be working way too near the close focusing limit where it is likely even shallower. Thus focusing may be very sensitive to movement on part of the subject or myself toward or away from the focusing plane.

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It does seem to me that even with the Bresson screen, it can be much more tricky to get the focus exactly right on my D3200 than I remember it ever being with my F2. And yes, sometimes you get to where the tolerances are very tight. I've worked in conditions where I had less than an inch of depth of field, and it doesn't take much error at all to mess it up. For such shots, I nearly always use a tripod, and have to take a few, tinkering with the focus between shots, to get it right.

Bob, on a slightly related note, I noticed you're using a vintage 28mm f3.5 on a D3200. I bought one of those along with this 105, and have been having focusing issues with that one too, albeit slightly different from those on the 105. On the 28mm, when focusing on closer in subjects (as opposed to infinity), the green confirmation dot stays on for a pretty wide focusing range, so nailing focus hasn't been easy, especially as the wider angle makes it harder to focus visually. After some trial and error, I have found that I get more consistent results if I focus outward toward the subject and stop when the green dot first comes on, rather than focusing inward from infinity, but it is still a bit hit or miss. Do you have any insights to share on getting the best out of that lens? Mine is a late 60s Nikkor-H with scalloped focus and aperture collars, by the way.

gustafson said:

Bob, on a slightly related note, I noticed you're using a vintage 28mm f3.5 on a D3200. I bought one of those along with this 105, and have been having focusing issues with that one too, albeit slightly different from those on the 105. On the 28mm, when focusing on closer in subjects (as opposed to infinity), the green confirmation dot stays on for a pretty wide focusing range, so nailing focus hasn't been easy, especially as the wider angle makes it harder to focus visually. After some trial and error, I have found that I get more consistent results if I focus outward toward the subject and stop when the green dot first comes on, rather than focusing inward from infinity, but it is still a bit hit or miss. Do you have any insights to share on getting the best out of that lens? Mine is a late 60s Nikkor-H with scalloped focus and aperture collars, by the way.

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I don't really have any useful insight for you on that lens. It's the one I use the least, since its parameters fall within those of my stock 18-55mm zoom; so it's uncommon for me to have an application where I think the 28mm has enough of an advantage over the stock lens to be worth the extra hassle of using it.

You seem to have a much older version of that lens than I do; and I wonder if they are optically the same. Of my ancient non-AI lenses, my 28mm is the least ancient among them.

Bob Blaylock said:

Yes, that appears to be what has happened. Easy mistake to make, losing track of who posted what.

This raises another question.

A “Nikkor-P” lens would be an old non-AI lens. (The “-P” is part of a designation system that was discontinued in 1974, a few years before AI came out.) Nikon's statements to the contrary notwithstanding, non-AI lenses can be used on lower-end models like the D3300; but I would expect that the D600 would be one of those models that is at risk of being damaged by trying to use a non-AI lens on it. I'm thinking that either @BLAdeCanyon does not, in fact, have the same lens, or else he has one that's been AI-converted.

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Interesting point, I will check it and post a picture of the lens itself when I get home.

Let's start at the beginning. You seem to be mentioning 2 problems that are different.

The focusing.
Focusing with modern dslr is difficult until you replace the focusing screen as was mentioned before.
Make certain that your diopter adjustment is perfect for your eyesight.
Install the camera on a sturdy tripod and manually focus on a non moving object with enough light. After finding the focus to your best of ability, turn on the LiveView, look at your camera's screen and press the "+" button a few times. This will magnify the LiveView and you will then be able to see the real focus. Sometimes, there could be a discrepency between the focusing screen in the camera's viewfinder and the actual sensor distance from the lens' focal plane.

Now for the movement you are feeling when you press the shutter and the overexposure...

This can be the diaphragm of the lens that is slow to close to the chosen aperture. You can check it with the lens off-camera by playing with the aperture lever behind the lens and see if it moves really fast and if it comes back in place very quickly when you release it. This could explain the overexposure you would get when you close the aperture. You can also check in "A" mode by varying the aperture on the lens, the camera's shutter speed should adjust accordingly to what it expects the real aperture to be. If you see that the more you close down the aperture the more overexposed your shots are (for the same scene), then the aperture blades are sticking. Sometimes, I have the same feel of focus moving with my 35 Ais and you may be right that it could move. Or is it just the diaphragm closing making this weird vibration, I don't know for certain. But I try to hold the focus ring when I shoot this lens to prevent this "focus shift".

Good luck.

Here's a shot I did with the 105 on a Df, iso 3200.

MCC_9339.jpg by Marcel Carey, sur Flickr

Marcel, I did play around with Liveview and a tripod, and you're right, I was able to get better focused shots using that method. However, I need to run the test that you're proposing to ensure I have the correct diopter setting.

Good to know that the focus ring movement that I'm noticing isn't purely my imagination. I'll double check the aperture blades as you recommend to make sure they aren't sticking.

Killer photo, by the way. Love the outline of light on the left side of the face!

Bob Blaylock said:

I don't really have any useful insight for you on that lens. It's the one I use the least, since its parameters fall within those of my stock 18-55mm zoom; so it's uncommon for me to have an application where I think the 28mm has enough of an advantage over the stock lens to be worth the extra hassle of using it.

You seem to have a much older version of that lens than I do; and I wonder if they are optically the same. Of my ancient non-AI lenses, my 28mm is the least ancient among them.

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I've got the 18-55 as well. Sadly your point about the redundancy hit home only after the thrill of the purchase was well behind me. According to this link and its following page, our lenses are likely the same optically: Non-Ai 28mm f2.0 Nikkor-N Auto & 28mm f3.5 Nikkor-H Auto

Okay, had to delete the first effort after realizing I posted a shot of the wrong lens:

Here is the 105mm f2.5 I have. It works on my D600 and D800, and has not damaged the camera.

Thought that was a AI or AIs lens looking at the second set of F stop markings,in which case it shouldn't damage those cameras.

Blade Canyon said:

Okay, had to delete the first effort after realizing I posted a shot of the wrong lens:

Here is the 105mm f2.5 I have. It works on my D600 and D800, and has not damaged the camera.



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That would not be quite exactly the same lens that @Gustavson described. He described a “Nikkor-P” lens, which would be a 1974 or earlier non-AI lens. What you are showing here is an AI lens, no older than 1978. Your lens might be a newer version of the OP's lens. It might even have exactly the same optics.

Thanks for sharing pics of your lens. Yours is a newer version which I believe is the Gauss design rather than the Sonnar (going by the large rear element).

So I took a number of test pics last night and am increasingly certain that my blurry images are due to manual focusing errors at close range due to the wafer thin depth of field at those distances at higher apertures, compounded by the limitations of the stock focusing screen. I'm planning to order a split focusing screen to better nail focus, and will have to remember to brace myself against something while shooting so I don't inadvertently lean toward or away from the focus plane before hitting the shutter. Thank you for all your help and insights.

As regards the rotation of the focus collar during a shot, I think it was more my imagination. I took a few shots while observing the focus collar and it is rock steady. However, my hand is picking up the vibration of the shutter release or the automatic aperture mechanism, and on occasion, this feels as if there is micro-movement of the focus collar, but it is unlikely the cause of the focus issue.


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