Megapixels versus Earthquakes

Eyelight

Senior Member
Been reading through threads and articles more or less related to high pixel count sensors, detail issues, etc.

Have not read this anywhere, but a thought is developing in my mind that aiming a smaller pixel at something requires a steadier hand. A 24.2MP DX sensor will show movement that a 12MP DX sensor would not.

The 24.2 is grabbing a smaller piece of light, so has to stay aimed on that smaller piece of light during the exposure, so:

- Shutter speed has to effectively freeze a smaller camera movement to achieve the best detail.

- A tripod would have to be more stable.

- Mirror slap would have a greater impact on a long exposure.

- I may need a faster shutter speed to overcome the same handheld movement.

Does all this make sense, or am I just getting closer to the edge?
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Does all this make sense, or am I just getting closer to the edge?

My notion is that maybe you passed the edge. :) Do you have any actual problem? More pixels (and the larger 4x5 camera too) do offer greater resolution (the 4x5 because it is enlarged only a fraction as much - but had it been 4x5 digital, it would have needed many times more megapixels to be adequate).

Sure, greater resolution could show blur better (shows all things better), but less resolution is not a solution for blur. You see less either way. :) If it is blurred, it is blurred. Resolution to see it is a good thing.

My reaction to a 36 mp D800 was the incredible resolution it offers (I was comparing to 12 mp DX, not to 24 mp DX). Resolution is a plus, not a minus. I don't notice any issue hand holding it, that's same as it always was. I think forget about any increased concerns, just observe normal good practice.
 
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Eyelight

Senior Member
Do you have any actual problem?

No problem. Just getting caught up with up with tech and thinking about the effect of pixel size on capturing points of light.

Not for certain, but I think the 36.3MP FX sensor has larger pixels than the 24.2MP DX sensor, so if I am not insane, the latter would be more susceptible to slower shutter speeds or minor tripod shake.

May not come into play at all handheld, but seems very likely an issue in long exposures.

It would also be more pronounced as distance increased from subject to sensor.
 

MeSess

Senior Member
No problem. Just getting caught up with up with tech and thinking about the effect of pixel size on capturing points of light.

Not for certain, but I think the 36.3MP FX sensor has larger pixels than the 24.2MP DX sensor, so if I am not insane, the latter would be more susceptible to slower shutter speeds or minor tripod shake.

May not come into play at all handheld, but seems very likely an issue in long exposures.

It would also be more pronounced as distance increased from subject to sensor.

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm not mistaken, the increase in pixels is basically just an increase in the resolution that the sensor captures. This is why (generally speaking) a higher megapixel count equals a sharper image at larger sizes and can be cropped more severely. Higher or lower, one is not more susceptible to blur or camera shake. Camera shake will be present in either if it was present during the photo taking the only difference is the resolution of one of the pictures will be higher.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Yes, one way to look at it is that the D800 36mp calculates 205 pixels/mm, and 24mp DX calculates 255 pixels/mm.
I agree, this might seem important if comparing two DX sensors, but for FX, it seems not the right story to consider.

Regarding image shake (which may be there regardless of size), the smaller DX sensor has to enlarge the image 1.5x larger than FX. That enlarges camera shake too, Shake is 1.5x worse on DX than FX. This is why we say handhold shutter speed 1/focal length for FX, and 1/(focal length x1.5) for DX. Yes, I did have that advantage on the D800.

It is also true that to show say 1200x800 pixels on a monitor screen, the 24 mp image would be resampled smaller than 12 or 16 mp, which is lower resolution, which would help mask any blur. Should be the same result either way. Saying, the larger mp image can be called a plus in itself, to help hide camera shake that way too. :)

I would maintain two things about bottom line...

that lower resolution is a crummy way to hide camera shake. :) We see less detail then. Setting it a little out of focus could do that too. :) There must be better solutions (like the common good practices).

and that 7360x4912 pixels (36 mp) actually offers greater resolution than 6000x4000 pixels (24 mp), regardless of the calculated pixels/mm numbers.
The DX also has to be enlarged 1.5x more too. So there are a few factors, but more mp is a plus, regarding resolution. Resolution is a fine feature.

Even for two DX cameras, lower resolution does NOT seem to be the proper way to choose the camera. :)
If you never intended or needed to crop extremely, or to print very large, then 12 mp seems like a lot, and the files are smaller to archive.
If only showing the image on 2 mp video screen, normal cases would not see any difference. I could see that argument, although it is not my argument.

But it really does not take very long to appreciate the greater resolution of larger images.
 

MeSess

Senior Member
Yeah, I'm pretty sure a pixel is usually one color and a large number of different color pixels are put together to make one image. Similar to a mosaic picture except the pixels aren't tiny images they are just solid color.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Oh, ok. Bad idea.


FWIW, zoom an image in your editor to about 1000% size or more, and you will see the pixels. The pixels are of varied colors (which is what shows detail), but any one of them is only one color. It is a color sample of that tiny area of the picture. This zoom is an extremely important thing to do once, to comprehend what is a pixel. Because, thinking of the image in terms of pixels is the only way to understand digital images. That is all there is, pixels.

I suppose if we built a one pixel camera, that properly exposed pixel ought to come out middle gray. :)
 

Eyelight

Senior Member
“The Itty-bitty Pixel Versus the Earthquake” would have been a better title.

Not sure I started with the right example either. I mentioned the DX sensors because being the same size sensor; a 24.2MP sensor would have smaller pixels than a 12 MP sensor.

The focus of my thought is related only to pixel size and the light that is aimed at a pixel.

Thinking from the viewpoint of a point of light that is moving from the subject and essentially aimed at a single pixel on a sensor: Any camera movement, while the shutter is open, causes light aimed at the single pixel to hit multiple pixels.

Now thinking of smaller pixels, the same camera movement would spill the light that is aimed at the single pixel into a larger number of neighbor pixels.

Just thinking this may contribute to some images not looking like the resolution of the camera.
 

Dave_W

The Dude
No problem. Just getting caught up with up with tech and thinking about the effect of pixel size on capturing points of light.

Not for certain, but I think the 36.3MP FX sensor has larger pixels than the 24.2MP DX sensor, so if I am not insane, the latter would be more susceptible to slower shutter speeds or minor tripod shake.

D800 pixel size = 4.88 microns
D7100 pixel size = 3.9 microns

Not sure what, if anything, this means but you're right in assuming the D800 has larger pixels. I actually thought it was the other way around so I'm glad you brought this subject up.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Now thinking of smaller pixels, the same camera movement would spill the light that is aimed at the single pixel into a larger number of neighbor pixels.

This is a pretty obscure discussion, but I think one fallacy is "single pixel". The width of any blur from camera shake will necessarily be in a few pixels, at least if we are going to see it. If it were in one pixel, it would just be a mostly undetectable tiny spot, a dot, or maybe a thin line, but I doubt we would call it blur.

Assuming same size DX sensor, 12mp pixels are only 41% larger than 24mp pixels. Sq root of 2 ratio for double area, so 1.414 width x 1.414 height = area 2, which is the 12/24 mp ratio in the same total area. Being that square root of 2 is an irrational number, I doubt these pixel borders would actually ever line up, but an area of 5x5 1.414 pixels is near the same dimension and area as 7x7 pixels of unit 1 (5x1.4 = 7, 5x5x2 = 50, 7x7 = 49, close, no cigar). This is the scale we are excited about. :)

Any blur from camera shake will necessarily be a few pixels wide, in order for us to see it. If it were in one pixel, it would just be a spot, probably not even noticeable. But we call it blur because we see blur - blur denotes width. If it were one pixel, it would be little problem. :) Even if by magic, if the pixels could line up, and if the blur was only one pixel, the lens image details projected on the sensor would not line up on pixel borders anyway, it has to straddle. But we see blur as a wider blur, containing various gray tones, etc. We are talking several pixels.

I have no clue what size the shake blur width would be, but it is what it is, regardless of which sensor, and it is clearly wide enough that we are complaining about it. Just for convenience, let's make up that one instance of the blurred edge width we see could be at least five 12mp pixels or seven 24mp pixels. This width may be too small (opinion), but such difference would only affect the resolution of the blur, how much detail we can see in the blur. Even the sharpest imaginable edge has anti-aliasing, and is 2 or 3 pixels wide. I really doubt it would make much difference about if we perceive blur or not. I still think there is a bigger problem, better solved by the conventional accepted anti-shake methods (tripods, VR, faster shutter speed, higher ISO, adding more light, bracing against a tree, paying better attention, etc).

600b.jpg

This is a D800 36 mp image... at 10 feet, lens was 120 mm, f/8.
This is a 600% crop from it, to show the pixels. Not 100%, but 600%.
600.jpg


I don't think there is much blur there, but how many pixels wide would you say the edge of the catchlight is? What if it were blurred, what might we see then? And this is 36mp. All edges in images are anti-aliased (intentionally slightly blurred with intermediate colors to hide jaggies a bit better). The eye lashes for example (click it to enlarge it a bit), are black, but there are added lighter brown pixels added (blending with background), which shows pixels (jaggies), but not as much as black pixels would show. Edges have width, and of course, blur would have more width.

I kinda like the resolution, it is kinda the point (600% is not the best view - 6x size would print at 50 dpi, at 12x8 feet), but perhaps there are reasons to select 12 mp or 16 mp over 24 mp (file storage size is all I can imagine, but which is hardly the most important thing about any image). I really don't think camera shake is one of the reasons. Most likely we are going to resample the 24mp image to no more than 2 mp to show it full screen on the monitor screen (and which will hide much detail). Regardless of sensor details, the blur is what it is, and surely we would instead want to just eliminate the camera shake.

And the most modern sensors sure do have a lot going for them.
 
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Eyelight

Senior Member
Thinking from the viewpoint of a point of light that is moving from the subject and essentially aimed at a single pixel on a sensor: Any camera movement, while the shutter is open, causes light aimed at the single pixel to hit multiple pixels.

Now thinking of smaller pixels, the same camera movement would spill the light that is aimed at the single pixel into a larger number of neighbor pixels.

I'm doing a poor job of conveying the idea. 10 microns of movement impacts more 3.9 micron pixels than it does 5.5 micron pixels. Not really thinking shake or blur. Think soft.
 

aroy

Senior Member
The premise holds if the same focal length lense is used in various sized sensors. As the image on the sensor will be same size, the sensor with higher density of pixels will have more details and there fore shake will be more evident as it will traverse more pixels.

Normally we try to fit the image we want in the frame. So with FX sensor if we use 50mm lens, with DX sensor we will use 35mm lense and with a smaller sensor may be 25mm. In such case the effect of shake/blur will be same as it will traverse the same number of pixels.
 

BackdoorArts

Senior Member
Skipping over the conversation just to interject that the idea behind your initial post is not out there in any way. When the D800 came out there were an awful lot of blog posts about Diffraction and how the size of the D800's pixels would lead to loss in IQ at apertures smaller than f/8 and whatnot. I won't take the time and space to go into it, but suffice it to say that if you Google "D800 and Diffraction" you'll get a lot of hits. Funny thing is, you won't see a lot of retractions from the original posters now that the camera has been out for a while.

There's physics that will correctly lead you to believe that light can be problematic with pixels that size. But there's also technology to react to that, and apparently Nikon did a pretty good job with it.

OK, back to where you were.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
I'm doing a poor job of conveying the idea. 10 microns of movement impacts more 3.9 micron pixels than it does 5.5 micron pixels. Not really thinking shake or blur. Think soft.

So? Regardless of which DX sensor, the blur is the same area in the picture either way (which is what we care about). 10 microns of a 24000 micron image width (DX) - either way, regardless of pixel size. If you have blur, you have blur. Smaller pixels may resolve that area better, but does not make it any larger. A larger image (FX) will make it smaller, and a smaller image (compact) will make it larger, but all more pixels does is resolve it better.
 

Eyelight

Senior Member
So? Regardless of which DX sensor, the blur is the same area in the picture either way (which is what we care about). 10 microns of a 24000 micron image width (DX) - either way, regardless of pixel size. If you have blur, you have blur. Smaller pixels may resolve that area better, but does not make it any larger. A larger image (FX) will make it smaller, and a smaller image (compact) will make it larger, but all more pixels does is resolve it better.

I do not disagree, simply because I think I failed to properly illustrate what I was imagining out here on the edge (or over as the case may be).

I'm still looking at a small pixel and what happens when it moves and I think most are seeing MM's. Not saying it is a bad thing to have small pixels. I myself have small pixels.:)

It seems we are aware that camera movement destroys detail. Doesn't it make sense that if we destroy the same square MM's of detail, a 24.2MP sensor suffers more resolution loss than a 12MP of the same size. If it doesn't then @Blacktop hit the nail on the head and a 1 pixel sensor would be the way to go.:chuncky:
 
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