Need help shooting a large family group photo

[WayneF]

The D90 does have the commander in it. Don't know about the Sony.

Three flashes is more power, and bounce can be distributed to evenly cover the group better. Keep in mind that the commander is metering the light in the center, and trying to adjust the each flash units power level to illuminate the center, even if the flash is meant to instead illuminate one side. If that is a problem, you could shift to manual flash (in commander menu, still triggered by the commander). Meaning then it is you that adjusts each power level (trial and error, by eye).

The commander trigger should not be much problem here. Rotate each flash body so that the sensor on side (by battery door) points back at commander on camera.

Another issue is that the commander probably causes subjects to blink (pictures of blinking people). FV Lock is the work around. Cameras with Commander also have FV Lock (but needs a function button to be programmed to do it). D90 camera manual is at http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13948

I worry that adding lots of unseen new stuff is an unreliable way to approach a big job that is already difficult. Some serious practice beforehand can only help.

If using direct flash, I would combine all three of them above the camera, for power and depth of field (to minimize the shadows of one row on the one behind). If it were only one row, it would be very different, but this a a few dozen people, with no bleacher seating rows, etc. But direct flash will suffer light fall off - twice as far is 2 stops down. Lights set farther back can help that, slightly. Fewer rows, closer together, can minimize their depth spread. Repeat, there are two factors, normal focus depth of field, and also light fall off with distance.

Any group, even only three people, usually has the problem that some one of them blinks or looks funny or something unacceptable. Hard to watch all of them at once. So do take a few tries, but there will still be of few of the people not quite right.

 

[Revet]

Not sure what "post the sb-600's off camera axis" means. Also, sorry I meant a D50 above not an A50. D50 would not work but the D90 would from what I could tell on google.

So I think what you are saying is to use the A90 to trigger all 3 remotely with the 600's off the center axis of the group as close as possible without being in the picture and the 700 above the camera. Is this right?? Can I just use the 700 on the camera or do I need the pop-up on the D90 to trigger the 600's.

Should I point these flashes down at the group if they are very high up or just let them fire in default position (straight ahead). I assume bouncing them will not be enough light, Correct?

I apologize to all for my lack of knowledge about flash photography. So far I have only used my SB-700 in auto mode bouncing off anything I can. I can see I bit off more than I can chew with this large indoor group shot, so I thank you all for being patient and spoon feeding me. I am excited now to get into this more after the big weekend and the group shot.

 

[Revet]

Ok, I have been reading about the SB-700's commander mode. Why can't i use the SB-700 on my D3100 (which I am very familiar with) in commander mode and fire the two SB-600's in remote mode? According to Mr. Google, I should be able to do this.

I spoke to a professional Photographer face to face today and he recommended I try using the flash on the camera facing forward (up high on the step ladder) possibly with a diffusion dome on it and then setting up the remotes about 1/3rd of the way into the group (from the center) on each side at camera level or a little behind, and try to bounce them at 45 to 90 degrees off the ceiling (pending which gives the proper light in the test shots). According to the manuals, these should be 3-6 feet from the ceiling. If I just cant get enough light, I will face them all forward and hope for the best as far as shadows go. He also recommended I go wide but not all the way to 18 on the Tamron lens, maybe 30-35mm and keep space on the outside of the group in case of lens distortion and for framing.

If this sounds like a good starting point I think I'm good. Any comments are welcome though and please confirm that I can use the SB-700 as the commander on my D3100.

 

[WayneF]

Ok, I have been reading about the SB-700's commander mode. Why can't i use the SB-700 on my D3100 (which I am very familiar with) in commander mode and fire the two SB-600's in remote mode? According to Mr. Google, I should be able to do this.

Sure, you can use the commander in the SB-700 on the hot shoe of the D3100.

Two possible issues however.

The D3100 has no FV Lock feature , so it is possible that you will get pictures of the subjects blinking. But if that commander flash is aimed at ceiling, blinking may not be too bad? The group will likely be a bit more distant than normal work? People differ in how easily they blink. A few always do, a few seem never to, and most do blink at it easily. It is not their fault, it is your problem to solve. FV Lock can solve it.

And bounce on the ceiling is not a line of sight path of control to the remotes. It is not impossible that it still works, but it is less certain.

I would bet on the D90 doing it better, for these two reasons.

 

[Revet]

Thanks, I think I'm ready for this. I'll look at the D90 the night before and see if I can easily figure it out. It worries me because when you are under pressure, it is best to know your equipment. I'm not too worried about blinking, I am going to take multiple shots and I can photoshop a few blinkers out and replace with non-blinking shots (except for my daughter who is a chronic blinker!!).

When I use the SB-700 as the commander, what type of signal is it sending out to the 600's?? (infra-red, small flashes) The manual says you can turn the commander flash off so I thought it was infrared (I guess that would still be line of sight). Would the commander function of the D90 be all that different since it is using the pop-up flash to emit a signal??

One other question I thought of. I understand that the further I move the flashes back, the more depth of coverage but decreased power (by a squared function if I remember correctly). Does this hold true if I bounce them?? In other words, if I try a bounce here, can I move them in a little closer to the group vs a direct flash. I will try TTL first but if I don't get enough light, I will switch them to manual mode and crank them (1/1) and move the zoom to wide angle. I was playing around last night with one flash at about the distance I think I will be shooting and I had to use a wide aperture and ridiculously slow shutter speed to get a descent exposure, so I understand the difficulty of this task I have before me.

Next post will be the final product. Wish me luck!!
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[WayneF]

Thanks, I think I'm ready for this. I'll look at the D90 the night before and see if I can easily figure it out. It worries me because when you are under pressure, it is best to know your equipment. I'm not too worried about blinking, I am going to take multiple shots and I can photoshop a few blinkers out and replace with non-blinking shots (except for my daughter who is a chronic blinker!!).

Well, remember, it is not just a few random people who just happen to blink then. You are flashing a light in their face that makes them blink then. Results will be much greater than random. Also the TTL remotes also do preflash then. Blinking is a big problem, it ruins photos. Bounce and greater group distance might possibly be in your favor, but rest assured you will see blinking in a group of 40 people. FV Lock is a good work around (it gets the blinking over with long before the shutter). Manual flash mode instead of TTL is another work around.

When I use the SB-700 as the commander, what type of signal is it sending out to the 600's?? (infra-red, small flashes) The manual says you can turn the commander flash off so I thought it was infrared (I guess that would still be line of sight). Would the commander function of the D90 be all that different since it is using the pop-up flash to emit a signal??

All the D90 or SB-700 can do is regular flashes. The commands are the regular visible flash light, at low power. Flash spectrum happens to be about 50/50 visible light and infrared. The remote flashes filter out the visible light part and call it infrared, but the humans will not, they filter out the infrared and call it visible. Commander is a low powered regular flash, just before the shutter opens, timed just right to capture blinking. FV Lock does all that flashing part early, on command, and then you leisurely press the shutter button later.

Caution about FV Lock. Watch the L symbol in viewfinder lower left. It means a flash exposure is captured and will be used. If the viewfinder times out after a few seconds (goes dark), it loses that, and will start flashing commands at the next shutter (so FV Lock has to be done again then).

The D90 commander would be aimed straight forward (better for line of sight, worse for blinking, but you have FV Lock). The sensor on the remotes can be turned to point back directly at the camera commander. That can be line of sight too. The bounce remotes can aim at the commander too, but that is not exactly where their commands are coming from. The commander on camera could be aimed forward at them, but then its final flash may affect front row. It is not impossible bounced commander might still work at that distance, but I would not bet on it. Line of sight is a major issue for Commander. It is not like your living room, you will be at greater distances in a very large ballroom.

One other question I thought of. I understand that the further I move the flashes back, the more depth of coverage but decreased power (by a squared function if I remember correctly). Does this hold true if I bounce them?? In other words, if I try a bounce here, can I move them in a little closer to the group vs a direct flash. I will try TTL first but if I don't get enough light, I will switch them to manual mode and crank them (1/1) and move the zoom to wide angle. I was playing around last night with one flash at about the distance I think I will be shooting and I had to use a wide aperture and ridiculously slow shutter speed to get a descent exposure, so I understand the difficulty of this task I have before me.

Next post will be the final product. Wish me luck!!
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Shutter speed is not a factor for flash. Shutter speed does not affect flash exposure. You must be using Slow Sync to meter the ambient. Ambient possibly could help, but it may be orange incandescent color. Turn Slow Sync off and camera A or P Mode jumps to 1/60 second Minimum with flash, regardless of the ambient (slow enough if using flash). Or set camera M mode, and you can set 1/200 second shutter sync speed to keep the orange ambient out. Shutter speed does not affect the flash exposure.

Ceiling height is a big factor too.

Comparing to a ten foot direct distance, bounce has to go that 10 feet plus the distance up and back down. Lets say the camera mounted flash and all the heads are 5 feet high. For a 14 feet ceiling, that is 14-5=9 feet up and again back down, plus ten feet across. If it were near 45 degrees, which 45 degrees is 1.4x farther, or 14 feet instead of 10 feet. That 1.4 distance is one stop more power.This case is more like 60 degrees, 1.7x more distance. Plus another stop loss at the reflection surface, assuming the ceiling can reflect 50% (a 50% gray card). Very rough, but 2 or probably 3 stops more power needed (more than direct flash).

But yes, it still has limits, but the bounce will more evenly light the depth than direct flash can (a rather large and desirable effect).

Yes, good luck, I hope it goes well. I think manual bounce will be the best picture if you can trigger it. Direct flash will be the easiest to make go, but not the best picture. If using TTL, don't forget that Flash Compensation is how we control automatic TTL, to get the result we want.

 

[Revet]

No I wasn't using slow sync and I understand that shutter speed has no effect on the flash. I think what I was finding in my test was that I could not get enough flash power to get a decent exposure unless a used a ridiculously long shutter speed which let in a lot of ambient and gave me a totally orange but exposed picture. (I was testing the limits of my flash in a very large room).

Nice example of the bounce flash. I think that does mean that if I bounce the flash in this shot, I can try to move them closer to the group so the light is being diffused on the ceiling which will hopefully illuminate the group. If that correct??? I want to limit the shots due to the size of the group, one will be direct flash, the other bounce, so I want to try to set up the best positions for those two SB-600,s for bouncing. Also moving them forward will help line of sight I think. I have practiced that with my 700 outside using my pop-up and it fires from almost all positions except directly behind the camera and does it from pretty far distance (more than I would have thought).

I was preparing last night by downloading an app for my cell phone which does depth of focus calculations. This confused me. According to the calculator,i f I shot this at anything above an F stop of 5, I should have no problem with depth of focus. I was figuring the distance to be about 25 feet to the group using my lens at 35-50 mm. The calculator even allows input for my specific camera. The only thing I could think here is that getting the group in focus is not the problem, it is getting them all evenly lit up that is the problem. But if that is the case, I should be able to use a lower F stop and let more light in. What am I missing here??? This is important because I want to get in there with an idea of the camera settings so I can move to the flash issue and figure that out in my practice session at the banquet hall.

I was starting to get all stressed out about this whole thing but then I saw a post from a young lady who had just purchased a D3100 the day before a paid wedding shoot and didn't have a speed light!! That settled me right down and I am back to having fun.

BTW, I am going to use the D90 for the feature regarding blinking. I have some time to go through the manual and learn it well enough. I believe that camera has a more dedicated lens for this type of shoot also vs. my all in one 18-270 Tamron zoom lens. If I do use it, I can still use the SB-700 on the hot shoe as a commander right. That way I only need to position 2 flashes instead of 3 off the camera. Unless it is worth doing it. Any thoughts on that.

 

[WayneF]

Nice example of the bounce flash. I think that does mean that if I bounce the flash in this shot, I can try to move them closer to the group so the light is being diffused on the ceiling which will hopefully illuminate the group. If that correct??? I want to limit the shots due to the size of the group, one will be direct flash, the other bounce, so I want to try to set up the best positions for those two SB-600,s for bouncing. Also moving them forward will help line of sight I think. I have practiced that with my 700 outside using my pop-up and it fires from almost all positions except directly behind the camera and does it from pretty far distance (more than I would have thought).

Mine are just some words, there are always different ideas.

Sure, the bounce can be a lot closer (for more effective flash power, 25 feet back sounds excessive). They could be at the ends of group, but don't forget the front row faces need some frontal lighting component too. So bounce should be a few feet in front of front row too, however the commander internal flash also contributes a bit (speaking of SB-700). The exposure of all these things needs to watched.

I was preparing last night by downloading an app for my cell phone which does depth of focus calculations. This confused me. According to the calculator,i f I shot this at anything above an F stop of 5, I should have no problem with depth of focus. I was figuring the distance to be about 25 feet to the group using my lens at 35-50 mm. The calculator even allows input for my specific camera. The only thing I could think here is that getting the group in focus is not the problem, it is getting them all evenly lit up that is the problem. But if that is the case, I should be able to use a lower F stop and let more light in. What am I missing here??? This is important because I want to get in there with an idea of the camera settings so I can move to the flash issue and figure that out in my practice session at the banquet hall.

Both focus (depth of field) and depth of lighting are a problem. When the formula says depth of field is X to Y feet, there is no sharp cutoff. It is gradual fall off, and a little more than X is not appreciably different than a little less than X. It is just a numerical match with an arbitrary degree of out of focus, seen more and worse in big prints than in small enlargements. Just saying, there is one point of focus, and sharpness trails off gradually in both directions. The DOF number is just some arbitrary limit, saying this much is enough. A critical use might deem the standards are better if half as much.

Offhand, 35mm and 25 feet seems really far back, more for the flash than the lens. The lens does not care, so long as you can stand back that far. But the little flash has to provide light at that distance. Greater flash distance requires a wider aperture to compensate. 18mm zoom of course covers it from half the distance of 35 (and half the distance is two stops brighter). Some middle compromise sounds good to me. Arrive and setup a little early, so you can try (and see) a few things there, before the big shot.

BTW, I am going to use the D90 for the feature regarding blinking. I have some time to go through the manual and learn it well enough. I believe that camera has a more dedicated lens for this type of shoot also vs. my all in one 18-270 Tamron zoom lens. If I do use it, I can still use the SB-700 on the hot shoe as a commander right. That way I only need to position 2 flashes instead of 3 off the camera. Unless it is worth doing it. Any thoughts on that.

I think the SB-700 commander as also direct flash minimizes the most problems (line of sight, frontal fill of front row, etc). Treat it as fill, if too much (to combine with the bounce), you can compensate it down in the commander menu.

Don't forget, in the Commander Menu, you can compensate any of the three groups individually, to tweak them into even coverage, to look right in your tests. And you can use camera Flash Compensation to adjust the total result up or down as needed (Commander often needs up to +1 EV FC anyway). Otherwise, the commander will try to set all groups equal in the center, which might not be correct for a side light not even attempting to cover the center.

And don't forget FV Lock, which requires a tiny bit of preliminary D90 setup (program function button). Dont forget the Lock goes away (the L symbol) when the viewfinder times out and goes dark.

If using TTL, I think you should set the remote SB-600 to beep their warnings, so you will be aware when you are asking for more power then they can deliver. I rather expect you will start that way. If unaware, the picture just does not get brighter. The flash Ready light does blink, but you cannot see it if the side with commander sensor is rotated towards camera. The viewfinder Ready symbol is not meaningful for Remote flashes.

 

[John P]

I just shot a family of 16 over the weekend.
Bounced flash from an Sb-800.
If you have 2 speedlights. Leave them bare and aimed at a wall behind you. This works very well.

 

[Revet]

Not sure if I have a wall to use yet plus with this large group I am going to need flash power but I will see what I have in the hall when I get there on Sat.

With all your help I feel pretty confident about this shot (that might not be a good thing!! lol). I still have 2 easy questions to make things run a little faster when on site.

1) If I can't figure out the D-90 with the little amount of time I have, can I use the SB-700 on my camera in commander mode using all 3 flashes on manual instead of TTL. I know it is still sending a signal but is that a signal that will cause blinking issues?? If it is, I will spend some time this week studying the B-90 manual. Also, I will put a new camera body on my wish list!!

2) With the sb-700 being used for fill, is it worth it to try a diffuser first or is that going to screw up my line of sight to trigger the 600's and/or not give me enough flash power. I'll see how this works out in the practice session but a little info beforehand can't hurt.

Thanks to you all I have learned a ton about flash photography and I look forward to spending more relaxed time with it after the new year. I bought the camera a few years ago and have gradually added lenses and the flash through the years. At the beginning of the summer I ordered 3 e-books via Digital Photography School and I have found I have a real passion for this, I just can't get enough. I love art but I can't create it. With photography, as I look through the lens, I can see the image and know if it's a an interesting shot in most cases. It's a perfect fit for me! Wish I found it earlier in my life but there is still plenty of time left to drive my wife crazy with my obsessions!! Thanks again to all who helped me here. Looking forward to posting simpler questions in the future and starting to participate in the weekly challenges or just posting photos for critique.

 

[WayneF]

1) If I can't figure out the D-90 with the little amount of time I have, can I use the SB-700 on my camera in commander mode using all 3 flashes on manual instead of TTL. I know it is still sending a signal but is that a signal that will cause blinking issues?? If it is, I will spend some time this week studying the B-90 manual. Also, I will put a new camera body on my wish list!!

Actually, the only option in the SB-700 commander is that all three groups (internal and two remotes A & B) have to all be the same mode. Mode can be TTL or Manual, but there is one menu shared by all three. Whereas the other commanders allow a different mode in each group.

Manual flash (set in the Commander menu) should not cause blinking. There is no flashed command requesting preflash, and no preflash to be metered. Manual already knows flash power level, specified in the Commander menu.

There is a command immediately before shutter opens, which is to tell the remote TTL or Manual flash their power level, but this is very close to the time of opening shutter, and the short delay is not known to cause a blinking problem. Not like TTL does.

2) With the sb-700 being used for fill, is it worth it to try a diffuser first or is that going to screw up my line of sight to trigger the 600's and/or not give me enough flash power. I'll see how this works out in the practice session but a little info beforehand can't hurt.

My notion is that diffuser simply cannot do anything useful for you. A tiny 2 inch diffuser does absolutely nothing on 10 or 20 foot group. All it can do is reduce your effective flash power.

 

[Revet]

Oh no. My brother was mistaken, he doesn't have a D90, its a D5000 and from what I found in my research it doesn't have the FV lock on it to prevent blinking. I guess it is back to using the 3 flashes in manual mode and doing proper test shots.

Just got a phone call from my other brother, he is bringing along another Nikon Speed Light that he borrowed from someone he knows who works for Nikon. He things it's an 800 but not sure. The problem here is it will arrive at the very last moment, probably after my practice shots. If I find that 3 speed lights aren't enough, How could I arrange 4 with the SB-700 on the hot shoe of the D3100 (acting as the commander). I was thinking 2 off center and one in the middle, all set to bounce. The middle one would have to be pretty low and I wasn't sure what happens when you shoot through a flash that is set up in front of the camera. I would guess there would be a better way to arrange them (no SU-4 mode because of the 600's) (maybe behind??). I'll stop throwing ideas out there and leave it to someone with more experience.

​John

 

[Revet]

Well I did some practice shots at home last night. A flash up closer in the center on bounce is not a good idea. With that ceiling height (12-14 feet), it just doesn't do much. So the question remains, where would be a good place for that 4th speed light and should I try it first it first as a direct flash with the 700 or added to the bounce flash 600's (if I can bounce at all). A starting scenario with the 4 flashes will help me save time in the limited time slot I have for practice shots at the Banquet hall.

 

[Revet]

It is confirmed, the 4th flash is an 800. I would think I want to use that as the central bounce with the 600's bringing out the outer people in the group then using the 700 as a fill on my 3100. Any ideas on the placement of the 800 would be great.

 

[Geoffc]

I've read this thread with interest as I decided to teach myself how to use flash and studio lights about two years ago. I've spent a lot of time reading and practicing so I am far from a novice. I've done a wedding, engagement and two "Important" family group photos for my wife's dad's 90th this year where I had to use flash. The groups only had about 15 or 16 people on them. In the small spaces with a low roof to bounce off it wasn't too bad but the fall off to the edges is significant and I was using and SB900. I now have two SB900s and I don't think they would light your group well.

I'm not going to go into the merits of wireless triggers and manual metering rather than TTL as I think others have provided comprehensive technical responses. Where I'm leading to with this is that the whole conversation makes me feel uncomfortable on your behalf. If this is your mum's 90th I wouldn't use it as a learning experience unless you and you family are prepared to be disappointed with the results. You will almost certainly get something, but I suspect you will have horrible shadows and uneven lighting across the group due to fall off. For me a picture like that would be unacceptable, but different people have different benchmarks. With a modern camera like my D800 I can recover some of the shadows due to the dynamic range of the sensor but it's not something I would do as part of the initial plan.

In your position I would seriously think about hiring a pro to get some good photos of an event that will not be repeated. It will allow you to enjoy the evening, rather than the stress and potential for disappointment.

This is just my thoughts on the matter and if you do go ahead I wish you every success and I will be as happy as anyone if you get results you are happy with.

 

[Revet]

I hear you Geoff, unfortunately I'm the youngest of the 10 siblings and out of town so I have little say in the planning of this event. In till I offered to take the photo a week ago, it would have been with taken with a small digital point and shoot camera. I am sure I can do better.

Saying that, I can still use a little help with the most likely best position of the 4 flashes, keeping in mind I have to have the SB-700 on my hot shoe to act as commander. This info will provide me a starting point in my test shots at the banquet hall. I can tweak it from there. To review, I will have two 600's, my 700 and an 800. I wish I had more time to play around on Sat but I don't.

From what I have learned so far I see two possible scenarios for lighting as many as 66 people:

One - use all the flashes, without bounce, back my the camera and shoot high to try and avoid shadows and to give me less depth in the shot. I'm sure this will give me plenty of light but we have the shadows and harsh light going on.

Two - use my 700 on camera (still shooting from a ladder) as a fill flash and then trying to bounce the other 3 up closer to the group. This will give me more even light and softened shadows. If this works, I'm still unsure of the best position of the 800 (with the 700 on my camera and the 600's closer to the front probably a third of the way or more from the center of the group). Since the 800 is the most powerful, It would be nice to use it as the main central light with the 600's lighting the outer edges of the group. I'm just not sure how to do this because I would have to keep the 800 back by the camera to keep it out of the picture at which point I'm not sure bouncing it will do much. Hope this question on the 800 makes sense.

 

[Geoffc]

I'm not sure that I can add anything that hasn't already been said, so I wish you good luck and I would genuinely like to know how it ends up. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, it wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of that One thing that did spring to mind, if you're using CLS to control the flash make sure they are all within range as it's not as robust as wireless.

 

[Revet]

Well, the event was a win win for everyone. One of the 600 flashes show up late Friday night and I realize it is nothing like mine (and I couldn't borrow it for the night). I got up at 5 am the morning of the event and started going through the manuals of the 600 and 800. I realize I will have zero amount of time to practice so I start getting worried. Just prior to the event I learn that my sister had recruited a photographer friend of hers to photograph the entire event so I was off the hook!! In the meantime though, I have learned a ton about Flash photography and I am very excited about practicing what I learned at a more leisurely controlled pace.

As I was sitting in the group picture, I was critiquing the photographers technique. She did elevate herself but not much. She only used one speed light on her camera in bounce position (ceilings were 16 foot high). The final result was a photo using a lot of ambient light (must have used a slower shutter speed), a lot of fall off of light at the edges, not everyone in crisp focus. But the real kicker was the large mirror behind the group. As you might expect, this reflected her flash and was the first thing your eyes were drawn too.

Interestingly enough, I set my camera up with a non-relative and he was off to the side of the photographer in a crouched position. I had him use the flash on default position (non-bounce). I think it came out better than the Pro's shot. I kind of like the lower position with everyone looking upward at the photographer. The lighting is better in this shot also. I posted two shots to demonstrate the result. I wish I could have done the whole set up like I had planned but it was much better that I was paying more attention to my mother and family than shooting a picture.

Also, two of the 10 siblings were AOL in the photographers picture but were in the photo that was taken with my camera!! LOL Thanks for all your help and I am sorry I didnj't have a photograph to post using all the techniques I learned here.
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