Need help shooting a large family group photo

[Revet]

My mom's 90th birthday party is Thanksgiving weekend and the family has given the group photo task to me. It will indoors in a restaurants party room. The picture will have about 50 to 60 people in it. Here is what I will be using, a Nikon D3100, two speedlights (nikon 600 and 700), a remote shutter release, and 3 tripods. I do have diffusion domes for both flashes. The lens will be a Tamron 18-270 zoom of which I plan to stay at 100 or less mm.

First, I will shoot it in manual so I would like a rough idea of a starting point for an f stop to give me enough range to get everyone in focus (I would guess somewhere from 8 to 11 to get everyone). Also a starting point for a shutter speed would be helpful (1/125??) I plan to focus (spot) on someone's face about a third of the way back.

Here is where I get lost. I plan to use the two speedlights on remote mode at 45 degree angles to the group and trigger them with my on-camera flash. I should be able to bounce them off the ceiling to soften the light. If I bounce them, should I still use the diffusion domes? or should I bounce with the card out to highlight the eyes?? or maybe use the diffusion domes without bouncing?? I will be triggering both flashes with my on-camera flash but since the D3100 does not have a commander function, does the whole TTL and Creative Lighting thing-a-ma-jig still work???? Does it work if the diffusion dome is on when used in this way? or should I just set them up in manual mode?? HELP!!!

I understand that I will have to do a final flash compensation after a few tests shots but I could really use some advice here since my family can get impatient quickly if I am farting around a lot!!!! Especially if consuming mass quantities of beverages!!!!!

Please don't tell me to purchase that nice Nikon trigger system that allows me to use TTL on a 3100 for about $300. I am saving for an upgraded body but just can't swing it yet (the family should chip in for me!!!!!)

 

[Revet]

I guess I should also mention that I am pretty savvy with my camera outdoors but when I am indoors I mostly use the SB 700 on auto mode on the camera. I know very little about indoor flash photography other than I have read the manual of the SB 700 a few times and at least know the terminology. I have used it a few times in remote mode using the on-camera flash to trigger it so I am good there. I also know how to use the manual mode if that is how I should do it. I just need a good starting point because I will not have time to mess around with that many people (most of them juiced).

 

[FastGlass]

Wow thats alot of people to light up with two speedlights. Remember those speedlights you're using only put out around 100ws of power. To get 50-60 people in focus you're definetly going to have to shoot in the f-11 range if not higher. The problem you're going to face is shooting with you're lense that closed isn't going to allow that much light from the flash to add to you're flash exposure. If you're intentions are to bounce and try to get a little fill. Thats probably going to be you're only option.

 

[WayneF]

The picture will have about 50 to 60 people in it.

So the group will consist of multiple rows of people - several rows.

First, I will shoot it in manual so I would like a rough idea of a starting point for an f stop to give me enough range to get everyone in focus (I would guess somewhere from 8 to 11 to get everyone). Also a starting point for a shutter speed would be helpful (1/125??) I plan to focus (spot) on someone's face about a third of the way back.

Speedlights won't bounce and do f/11. Bounce will be at lower level. Depends on ceiling, but hope for f/5 ISO 400; Practice this a bit (in place) before the event (practice all of it in advance - Just a couple of friends sitting in can still give a good idea.)

Shutter speed does not affect flash (flash just happens while shutter is open). A slow shutter (like 1/60 second) will try to emphasize any continuous ambient light present, and a fast shutter (1/200 second) will keep out the continuous ambient light. Flash exposure is not affected.

Here is where I get lost. I plan to use the two speedlights on remote mode at 45 degree angles to the group and trigger them with my on-camera flash.

My main point is I hope you mean the lights near the camera, aimed 45 degrees outward.

If you mean towards the group edges, aimed 45 degrees inward. the light will be even and nice on the first row, but you will make terrible shadows of one row on the next. You cannot see and predict those shadows in advance, but shadow of one head will be on the head in the row behind, etc. It can be awful. You try to elevate each rear row, but this lighting makes it hard. It is good for one single row however.

If lights are in the center by camera, angled outward, then they more or less light the same thing that the lens sees. Peoples heads who can see the camera can also see the lights, the light will illuminate their faces (far less shadows).

Elevating the camera will help a lot. Stand on a step ladder with it, aimed down into the group. This effectively "elevates" the rear row, and the angle helps depth of field too.

Make a rough sketch on paper if necessary to get it (re: shadows)... Rows of heads, and the camera position, and the lights position. Then ask, where are the shadows of one row on the next? What does the camera angle see?

I should be able to bounce them off the ceiling to soften the light. If I bounce them, should I still use the diffusion domes? or should I bounce with the card out to highlight the eyes??

Bounce is good if you can pull it off (ceiling height, etc). Forget the domes. You need all the light you can get. The bounce card can help, esp with flashes in center near camera.

or maybe use the diffusion domes without bouncing?? I will be triggering both flashes with my on-camera flash but since the D3100 does not have a commander function, does the whole TTL and Creative Lighting thing-a-ma-jig still work???? Does it work if the diffusion dome is on when used in this way? or should I just set them up in manual mode?? HELP!!!

Forget the domes. No, without Commander, it can only be manual flash mode. One TTL flash requires the hot shoe, and multiple TTL flash requires the Commander. Period.

Manual flash mode. Trigger the SB-600 however you can (it has no slave, so it can be on hot shoe with head angled some to its side, or on hot shoe extension cord for example). The SB-700 has its SU-4 optical slave mode, which will trigger (manual flash) from the SB-600 flash. To be very safe, rotate head on body so SB-700 sensor (on side with battery door) is aimed at triggering SB-600.

Hope that helps. Practice it just a bit first. The actual event should NOT be the first time you see all of this.

 

[Rick M]

Any chance you could rent some studio lights from a local shop? If you could supplement those speed lights with a couple studio lights on the extremes...,

 

[Whiskeyman]

What post processing software can you use? Could you have an assistant use the lights on small portions of the group and use masks and layers to blend several exposures?

WM
​

 

[Revet]

Until yesterday, the picture was going to be taken with a small digital camera with no lens and a tiny flash. With what I have available to me I'm sure I can do better. Thanks for the advice , I didn't know that I couldn't trigger the SB 600 with my flash like the 700 I own.

I was originally thinking of placing the two speedlights in front of the camera maybe halfway to the group off to the sides (one on the left and one on the right) and point them both towards the middle of their respective sides of the group. Won't this cancel out shadows created by the one on the other side?? Of course I still have the problem of firing the 600.

So how about this, I think I can take the shot elevated (don't forget I'm in the picture). I can use the 600 on the camera and remote the 700. Where would a good place for the 700 to be?? I think the ceilings in this place are low and white but it is 500 miles from me right now so it is tough to get practice in on site. I want to try to make it simple since I haven't gotten to indoor photos yet in my studies. I will certainly practice everything at home so the mechanics of setting everything up runs smoothly. Also, this is the first time in a while i am seeing my whole family (10 siblings and 30 nephews and nieces) so I am going to be pretty ramped up and not thinking too much about photography or how I need to get the picture. So if you can give me a few scenarios with the two speedlights that would be better than a point and shoot digital camera, that would be awesome.

Last thing, I am very good with Lightroom, using raw photos (which I always shoot). I am not so good with photoshop elements but I find I can do anything I want by googling it.

 

[WayneF]

Until yesterday, the picture was going to be taken with a small digital camera with no lens and a tiny flash. With what I have available to me I'm sure I can do better. Thanks for the advice , I didn't know that I couldn't trigger the SB 600 with my flash like the 700 I own.

I was originally thinking of placing the two speedlights in front of the camera maybe halfway to the group off to the sides (one on the left and one on the right) and point them both towards the middle of their respective sides of the group. Won't this cancel out shadows created by the one on the other side?? Of course I still have the problem of firing the 600.

The SB-600 has no builtin means to trigger it remotely (excepting with a Commander, which it does have, but the D3100 does not). You can add an inexpensive optical slave accessory to its foot (see Optical slave triggers for speedlights ) if there is time. That would be like the SB-700 builtin SU-4 slave. Or you could add radio triggers, etc. Or a hot shoe extension cord like the SC-28 (these are really only good to maybe four feet).

I don't want to say too much about arranging the lights, because then it will be my fault. But large groups are difficult, so do think about it. Maybe think like this:

Say you have a front row of ten people, numbered 1 to 10.

I think you are proposing lights in front of #3 and #8, aimed more or less straight back. That does not seem unreasonable for the front row. But you have 60 people, so you have five more rows of ten (technically, you would have rows of arcs of semicircles, helps in a few ways). There is going to be all kinds of shadows (on faces from the row in front), all the way back, awesome shadows, none of which you can see until you take the picture. The camera will be in the center, its wide view sweeping across the group so to speak. What it sees, and what the lights light, are very different things, with respect to those shadows. You will have lots of dark faces (the camera sees a different view than the lights saw). Lights should be high, and camera should be high, and its good if the rear rows were high too.

I'm suggesting lights high above the camera, both more or less between #5 and #6, and aimed out across the group. The center overlap is one spot to watch and adjust. The lens will see those same angles from the same point, so what the lens sees, the lights light. This is inferior lighting (greater distance) out towards the edges, so it works better if the lights are back a bit (but the camera has to be back a bit too, to cover the wide group). There are of course better ways to light an area, but no better way to light what the lens sees. You want the lens to NOT see shadows. You want to light what the lens sees.

Your large group makes it be very difficult, by definition.

Study up a bit on the web. Here is one good source: http://super.nova.org/DPR/Groups/

Or here: lighting large group - Google Search

It is far from an easy problem. A few orders of magnitude different than a group of five.

 

[Revet]

Thanks, Great stuff for me to think about

The SU 4 is intriguing to me. If I read about it correctly, I use it on the D3100 to send a signal to the SB 700 and SB 600. Is that correct??

I'm starting to understand the lighting problem here. A couple of questions though. How high should I get the camera and flashes?? My tripod brings it to about my eye level at its mas height. I can put the tripod on some chairs and bring a step ladder for the person assigned to the camera. Saying this, I can use the SB 600 on the D 3100's shoe, and the SB 700 as a remote on a bracket off the D 3100. It looks like a can rotate the SB 600 like I can the 700 so I can point the two flashes away from center a little to capture the outside of the group better (making sure they overlap in the center). How does this approach sound??

It sounds to me that I want Max Flash output from each flash with no zoom. If that is correct, I guess I should put them in manual mode at 1/1 with the lowest mm zoom. Is that correct??

Now about the shutter speed. I understand that the flash is mucho fast and freezes the subject, thus the shutter speed can be set longer to fill in ambient light. How long of a shutter speed could I get away with in this type of shot (I have the knowledge but not the practice with this yet)? On the same note, How high could I take the ISO taking in to account that I can reduce noise a bit in lightroom? I wasn't going to try and go higher than 400 but I guess I could probably do 800 if needed. The other problem I have is the DX format cropped view of the D3100. I had planned to do some test shots while everyone else is drinking by using a front row and back row person to get my f stop right, but I'm not sure I will be able to tell on that little tiny screen on the D3100.

I guess another option is to call ahead to the restaurant and have them install a retractable roof by next weekend and pray for sunshine. Then I would be in my comfort zone and would only need fill light!!

 

[WayneF]

Thanks, Great stuff for me to think about

The SU 4 is intriguing to me. If I read about it correctly, I use it on the D3100 to send a signal to the SB 700 and SB 600. Is that correct??

It is not used on the camera. It goes on the remote flash foot. The cameras regular internal flash IN MANUAL MODE is what triggers it on the remote.

The SU-4 is a hardware accessory optical slave trigger, Nikon SU-4 Wireless Remote Slave TTL Flash Controller 3070 B&H
The same function is already built into the SB-700, called SU-4 mode. It could be added to the foot of the SB-600 to provide same function, but it costs $85. It is a really good one, but $10 cheapies are available on Ebay. Caution: Not all work on the SB-600, because it has a lower sync voltage than many, and this sync voltage is what powers the optical slave accessories. First read Optical slave triggers for speedlights

I'm starting to understand the lighting problem here. A couple of questions though. How high should I get the camera and flashes?? My tripod brings it to about my eye level at its mas height. I can put the tripod on some chairs and bring a step ladder for the person assigned to the camera. Saying this, I can use the SB 600 on the D 3100's shoe, and the SB 700 as a remote on a bracket off the D 3100. It looks like a can rotate the SB 600 like I can the 700 so I can point the two flashes away from center a little to capture the outside of the group better (making sure they overlap in the center). How does this approach sound??

Tall light stands sound better, and a step ladder is common approach for the camera. A camera level with the group sees front rows blocking view of the rear rows. Height lets the camera (and the lights) look down into all rows of the group, without being blocked by front rows.

It sounds to me that I want Max Flash output from each flash with no zoom. If that is correct, I guess I should put them in manual mode at 1/1 with the lowest mm zoom. Is that correct??

Possibly. You said "restaurant". That is probably a 12 foot ceiling (tough for bounce power) and the ceiling may not be near white.
The SB-600 is slightly stronger than the SB-700, but only about 1/3 stop. Under a 12 foot regular acoustic tile white ceiling, this power for bounce probably needs ISO 800 to do f/5. But restaurants are often NOT white ceilings. Meeting rooms or country clubs, probably are high white ceiling, but many restaurants seem to like dark ceilings.

Bounce does a lot to even the lighting from first row to last row (everyone is about same distance from ceiling). Direct flash suffers badly from inverse square law falloff. Twice the distance is two stops down (dark). Lights back farther helps this (a little). Less depth of fewer rows helps this (a little). You are facing several difficult problems.

Large groups is one of the hardest problems. You do need to try and see this stuff before the big event. If the picture is important, you might consider hiring it to be done professionally.

Now about the shutter speed. I understand that the flash is mucho fast and freezes the subject, thus the shutter speed can be set longer to fill in ambient light. How long of a shutter speed could I get away with in this type of shot (I have the knowledge but not the practice with this yet)? On the same note, How high could I take the ISO taking in to account that I can reduce noise a bit in lightroom? I wasn't going to try and go higher than 400 but I guess I could probably do 800 if needed. The other problem I have is the DX format cropped view of the D3100. I had planned to do some test shots while everyone else is drinking by using a front row and back row person to get my f stop right, but I'm not sure I will be able to tell on that little tiny screen on the D3100.

I dunno, maybe 1/30 second? Cameras shake, and human subjects move. Group distance helps though, does not show as much as if close up.

DX just means you need a shorter lens than FX would need. 18mm zoom should be more than plenty on DX for a group. 18mm on DX is 66 degrees wide view. This seems your least problem.

I guess another option is to call ahead to the restaurant and have them install a retractable roof by next weekend and pray for sunshine. Then I would be in my comfort zone and would only need fill light!!

And install bleacher type seats for the rows to stand on, while you're at it.

 

[Revet]

Thanks all for the great input. I have learned a ton and it will help me. But lets be realistic. We are not going to make me a professional grade indoor large group photographer in the time I have. Now I know why I saved flash photography for last on my learning curve. But saying that, I know I can do better with two speed lights, some tripods, a ladder, and using post processing, shooting in Raw, than what it was going to be; a person shooting on the ground with a decent digital SLR and speedlight with a jpeg image and no post processing. Thus let me review what I think I am going to try and you can tweak it from there.

First, the restaurant is Biagio's in Paramus New Jersey in their Ballroom. They have great pictures on line in the weddings and special events section if you feel so inclined to check. To sumarize, the ceilings look 12-14 feet, they are white with recessed white rectangles lined with wide wood trim. The walls are white with a lot of wood and windows in the room. The shot will be late in the day so (4-5 pm) so I don't know how much light will filter in but some will I'm sure. I might be able to get them to turn up the room lights for the shot.

Step One - set up camera and speedlights and get some quick test shots using 4 people in the predicted area of the shot. Figure out from this if my lighting is ok and what F stop I should use. Knowing the F stop, I will set the shutter speed and ISO, trying to keep the ISO at 800 or less. I plan to use single-servo auto focus but possibly manual if I am having trouble in low light (doubt that though). Also, single point AF for AF-area mode, and spot metering. I will use the histogram on the camera to get the exposure close if not right on.

step 2 - call in the group. I plan to arrange them with my mother sitting in the center probably in the 2nd row. The form a arc starting from here with families in groups trying to keep the group as narrow both in width and depth as possible. My daughter is an art major and is all over this for me.

Since it sounds like the SU-4 is only good for the SB 600 (which is not mine) I don't think I am going to go that route but I might be able to rent another SB-700 for the weekend. Thus I see two possible senarios for the camera and flashes.

One - use the 600 on the camera and trigger the 700 using the SU-4 mode. I can either point the flashes straight ahead or angle them slightly outwards a person or two from my mom (which ever you feel is better). If I go this route, would you use the pull out wide angle diffuser that is part of the SB 700 and I hope the 600.

two - If I can rent another speedlight, I can trigger both using SU-4 mode so I can use both flashes off camera and possibly get them in closer and higher and bounce them, or put them in another place you might suggest (straight on, angled or bounced). If a bounce would work, I could pull out the card to get more light on the faces.

Lastly, the group may not be as big as I thought. We might be looking at 40 people total for the big shot, and a couple of pics with 12 or so people in it (siblings and Mom, families and Mom). I mostly care about the big one, I can handle the smaller groups. I can't thank you all for the time you put up with me on this and all your help. I will most definitely post the photo when it is all done.

 

[WayneF]

To sumarize, the ceilings look 12-14 feet, they are white with recessed white rectangles lined with wide wood trim. The walls are white with a lot of wood and windows in the room. The shot will be late in the day so (4-5 pm) so I don't know how much light will filter in but some will I'm sure. I might be able to get them to turn up the room lights for the shot.

White ceiling is plus, 14 feet is maybe not for speedlight power. But 14 feet would be good and even lighting, if you can get some power up there. Not exact, but 14 feet probably requires two stops more power (4x power) than 10 foot ceilings. My SB-800 (a bit stronger) can do ISO 400 f/5 on 12 foot ceilings.

Incandescent lights will be orange. One could plan for them by using CTO filters on the flash (to make it orange too) and then using Incandescent white balance to match it all. This reduces flash power a bit. A slower shutter speed helps pick up the incandescent lights, if that's the plan. Otherwise, a slower shutter speed may just be a color cast in the flash picture.. if mild, maybe just a slight warming tone.

Step One - set up camera and speedlights and get some quick test shots using 4 people in the predicted area of the shot. Figure out from this if my lighting is ok and what F stop I should use. Knowing the F stop, I will set the shutter speed and ISO, trying to keep the ISO at 800 or less.

This initial test seems a real good plan, about group feasibility.

Since it sounds like the SU-4 is only good for the SB 600 (which is not mine) I don't think I am going to go that route but I might be able to rent another SB-700 for the weekend.

Only "needed" for the SB-600. Already built in on SB-700, 800, 900, 910.

If renting lights, at least rent stronger SB-800 or SB-910. About 3/4 stop stronger than SB-700. Both of those also have the SU-4 mode. Manuals are online at http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/13948

Or much better, instead rent some strong studio mono-lights and light stands for the bounce. Studio lights also have optical slaves built in. You will likely need some extension AC cords. The speedlights might be 60 to 75 watt seconds power. Studio lights come in all sizes, but 1200 watt seconds would be about four f/stops stronger than the speedlights. Bounce should work. Respect them, they are no toy. High, but several feet from ceiling to light a large area up there, including some of it a little in front of group (don't forget the front row). Set them to full power, and then see what aperture you can use.

Thus I see two possible senarios for the camera and flashes.

One - use the 600 on the camera and trigger the 700 using the SU-4 mode. I can either point the flashes straight ahead or angle them slightly outwards a person or two from my mom (which ever you feel is better). If I go this route, would you use the pull out wide angle diffuser that is part of the SB 700 and I hope the 600.

I would say no diffuser. It drastically dilutes the effective power and brightness.
The speedlights can be zoomed to 24 mm (FX, which covers 18mm DX). And the DX lens is probably about 18mm? Suggesting no need to angle them. If you angle them, they should be divided in halves - that is, partial overlap is brightness intensity in center that is not on ends. If angled, you may even be able to zoom them slightly tighter for greater power, if you wanted to spend time checking the width coverage. This is just talk, you will have to do what you see you have to do.

two - If I can rent another speedlight, I can trigger both using SU-4 mode so I can use both flashes off camera and possibly get them in closer and higher and bounce them, or put them in another place you might suggest (straight on, angled or bounced). If a bounce would work, I could pull out the card to get more light on the faces.

Yes, use the card if bounced. But one row casting shadow on rows behind is a problem for direct flash. Bounce flash comes from the ceiling above, and shadows will be very much less serious. Remember, bounce has to light the front row too. Card can help with the first row. Multiple bounce lights could be spread in the room to better illuminate the area, shadows are not the main concern then, so a different solution than direct flash above the camera.

My big concern is that the first time has to work. Some new untried gear and methods, and no opportunity for tests and trials. If you could get the gear a few days early, then maybe could test a little in a large meeting room at work or church? (probably 12 feet ceilings?)

 

[Revet]

Very strange, I posted a thread yesterday and I got a response from Wayne but it no longer is showing here. It had a few important points in it from Wayne so I am wondering how I can get it back?? I think I can pull this off with a decent photo with all the info I got here but now I'm going to throw you a curve.

To repeat what was said in the lost thread, The party is at Biagios in Paramus, NJ in the Banquet room. This room has white ceiling and walls with a lot of wood grain and windows (shot is late in the day though). The ceilings are between 12 and 14 feet high.

1) I will have a step ladder there so I will shoot high. My brother in NJ is a contractor and he has a dual halogen light on a 9 foot stand that he uses for construction. It has two lights, 500 W each, that can be moved individually but not separated from each other. Can I use these somehow without blinding the group. If I can use them, do I need the flashes for fill. If I can use them, do they make a flash filter for halogen so I can fix the white balance in Lightroom? Can I bounce the halogen's off the ceiling to not blind the group? If you think this is doable, give me an idea on how to set the two speedlights (if needed) and the halogen light to shoot the group.

2) Good news, I have about an hour or two before the event that I can go into the Banquet room and set things up and take some test shots. I did some checking and there are tons of camera shops in that area (surprise, surprise, Paramus NJ is the mall center of the world). I can check to see if I can rent studio lights. The problem here is I no nothing about them or how to use them and there isn't a lot of time to learn. Plus, if they are pricey to rent (remember this is the NY area), it will not be doable. Are these easy to use and affordable to rent? I will call some shops in that area today to see what is available. To be honest, I would rather not do this because it means running around that morning and relying on my brother to get them back and when you travel in Paramus NJ, it is never a quick thing. However, if this is the only way to get a decent shot (not a professional one), I can look into it.

 

[Revet]

I did some checking and people do shoot with those halogen lights and they are cheap. I can buy another for myself at home so we could have 2000 W of light for this shot. I think this is the way I want to go to avoid running around that morning so If you can give me some tips on how to place the halogen lights and speedlights (if needed) that should finish this thread (until I post the resulting picture of course)

 

[WayneF]

I think it is a bad idea. For 1) The 2000 watt halogen lights will be dim compared to the speedlight flash. Shutter speed decimates continuous lights. Also for 2) hot and dangerous on the floor with a crowd.

Consider a 1/30 second shutter speed, call that as slow as imaginably bearable.
This computes 2000 watts x 1/30 second = 67 watt seconds. The SB-910 is more like 75 watt seconds (at 1/200 second). But it is far worse - the incandescent light efficiency (of making light from electricity) is much lower than the flash. The flash is maybe 4 times more efficient than these numbers indicate, 4x more light. You cannot beat flash.

Your message is not missing, it is #11 in this thread, first one on page 2.

 

[Revet]

LOL, I found it on PAGE 2 !!!! Didn't know I had a 2nd Page!

Ok, thanks for the input on the halogens. So I guess I am going to go with the 2 speed lights on the camera (the 600 on the shoe and the 700 triggered in SU-4 mode on a bracket off to the side). I will face them straight ahead at my mom (its all about her). I can use a tripod for the camera and still get it up high and use the step ladder to adjust the shot and look at the histogram so I can try slower shutter speeds and higher ISO's if needed. Then in post processing I can lighten up the edges of the group if I need to. I guess I could also try cutting the group in half and hit them with the lights, do the same for the other half and then photoshop the two images.

I think here comes the last question, would you use an incandescent dome on the flashes to match the room lighting or just shoot it with the flashes like they are with the camera set for flash white balance (using Raw) and then correct in Lightroom the best I can. Also, I do have that wide angle lens I can pull out for the flash on the 700 (not sure if the 600 has it). Normally i only use that for macro photography. Does it have any use in this shot or will it just cause too much flash drop-off. I can test all these ideas at home and before the shot but the more info I get here, the better. Thanks again for all the great advice. I'm really excited about starting my Flash Photography learning (probably after the new year). I'm starting with Digital's photography School's e-book "Lighting the Shot".

Oh, Last last question. When I use my SB 700 on the camera, I set the flash on DX to match my camera. In this shot, can't I set it for FX to get more coverage since I would be using manual and Flash reduction if needed (starting on 1/1 and reducing as needed)?

 

[WayneF]

I think here comes the last question, would you use an incandescent dome on the flashes to match the room lighting or just shoot it with the flashes like they are with the camera set for flash white balance (using Raw) and then correct in Lightroom the best I can. Also, I do have that wide angle lens I can pull out for the flash on the 700 (not sure if the 600 has it). Normally i only use that for macro photography. Does it have any use in this shot or will it just cause too much flash drop-off. I can test all these ideas at home and before the shot but the more info I get here, the better. Thanks again for all the great advice. I'm really excited about starting my Flash Photography learning (probably after the new year). I'm starting with Digital's photography School's e-book "Lighting the Shot".

"Incandescent dome" threw me. I can imagine an orange dome that converts the flash to incandescent color, to match incandescent white balance, but I am unaware of their availability ( I have seen green ones for fluorescent). The orange filter part will drop the flash intensity to about half (one stop). The dome or diffuser part will drop it to about 1/4 of that remainder (two more stops). I think you need the light instead. If you are seeking major help from the incandescent room lighting, the filter can be necessary (there are CTO gel filters without the dome part). I don't think the dome is ever necessary, because these speedlights in 24mm FX zoom position will cover anything an 18mm DX lens can see, one light acting alone. Two lights is just that much easier. And you seriously need the flash power.

A large group is as tough a job as any. There are a few impossibilities to overcome. However there are known rules of thumb. Bounce flash helps tremendously (even lighting, less lighting depth falloff, no direct shadows one row on another, but it requires flash power). Otherwise direct lights high above camera position (to light what the lens sees, same angle, to prevent shadows of one row on another), camera also high (stepladder), rear rows also high (bleacher style rows). The height is looking down into the rows, high lighting to prevent the shadows, the camera to see all the heads. Tripods are hardly head-high, which I really don't think will be high enough.

I'm sorry that I cannot help in the way you would prefer. I see it as a harder job.

Oh, Last last question. When I use my SB 700 on the camera, I set the flash on DX to match my camera. In this shot, can't I set it for FX to get more coverage since I would be using manual and Flash reduction if needed (starting on 1/1 and reducing as needed)?

The maximum zoom of the flash is the same width coverage. 24mm FX covers about 78x60 degrees (spec chart in the rear of the flash manuals). That coverage will cover what a 24mm FX lens sees, or it will cover what a 18MM DX lens will see, but it is all the same flash.

 

[Revet]

No Wayne, you have helped tremendously!! If I use the info you gave me, this shot should be much better than a point and shoot. Our family just want a record of the event. If we wanted a professional quality photo, we would have hired a photographer. Photography is becoming a passion of mine so I wanted to try to do it as well as I could. It is going to be fun and I will learn a ton in the process trying to do it. Expect plenty of posts from me in the future as I start to learn my flash and flash photography. You already have given me a great start and the interest to move ahead!! thanks again.

 

[Revet]

OK, I think we may have found a solution. We have 3 nikon camera's and three speedlights coming. We have my D3100 which I know very well, we also have an A50 and a D90 coming (both owners of these only use the Automatic setting on the camera). We will have 2 SB 600's and one SB 700 for the flashes.

I believe the D90 can command the 600's and 700. Is that correct? I'm not sure about the A50. If neither can be commander and send out an infrared signal to trigger all the flashes, not need to reply. However, if we can use the D90 or A50 to trigger the flashes off camera (without purchasing a radio transmitter) give me your best scenario for placing the 3 flashes in relation to the large group. I can also try to bounce the three of them if you think that might be feasible. I can get them as high as we need with a camera unipod or tripod held up in the air. The camera can be high using the step ladder or a tripod on chairs or a table. The more I think about this shot, I think it needs me at the camera instead of in the group with a remote trigger. Thus i can rapidly get a bunch of shots. Then I can add myself in latter in photoshop (of course leaving room for me in the picture with each shot). Let me know what you think

 

[Whiskeyman]

I'd post the SB-600's off camera axis and use the D90 flash in commander mode to trigger them, and place the SB-700 high and close to the camera to begin with. If need be, you can decrease the strength of the D90's flash in the camera menu. I'm not sure of the SB-700 in commander mode, but the D90 and SB-600s are compatible.

You should place each flash strobe as close to the group as you can without intruding into the photo. Set the zoom range of the flash to the longest focal length that you can and get even illumination; anything less and you're wasting light.

Also, let the members of the group know before hand that you might need to take several shots, and to please be patient with you.

Good luck with this and let us know how it goes.

WM