D810 not honoring minimum shutter speed in commander mode

[Foo Fighters]

While using the D810 in commander mode with the pop-up flash set to remote only for one SB-910, it will often times, over look my minimum shutter speed of 1/80s (from the ISO Sensitivity menu). It will default to 1/60s camera shutter speed.

I'm using the Sigma 50mm 1.4 Art lens, in Aperture Priority mode. Flash Shutter speed is maxed at 1/60s, and Flash Sync speed is set to 1/250s or 1/250s Auto FP, yielding the same result.

Additionally, if I place the SB-910 directly onto the hotshoe, this issue is non-existent. Is anyone else experiencing this? Is this normal?

 

[Blade Canyon]

I had a similar issue on the D600, and think the reason is that the pop-up flash cannot work in 1/250 Auto FP mode, so it won't work that way even as commander for a speedlight that can do HSS. When the Speedlight is on the camera, then the camera knows that it can do high-speed sync, so it doesn't default back to 1/60th shutter speed. What I'd like to know now is whether high speed will work with if you use a radio trigger. Also, have you tried a long sync cord instead of commander mode? I bet that would work.

 

[Foo Fighters]

Thanks for the quick reply. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're telling me the pop-up flash in remote/commander mode is capping the external flash at 1/60s?

There's a setting for 1/250s w/out Auto FP. But that has no impact on my result, if it's being capped in the first place.

If that's the case, I feel cheated. No, I don't have a sync cord. I bought this flash, right before leaving for the Caribbean. I'm stuck in the Caribbean for the next 5 months, I guess I'm screwed, because I can't mail order items here, without hefty duty fees.

 

[WayneF]

While using the D810 in commander mode with the pop-up flash set to remote only for one SB-910, it will often times, over look my minimum shutter speed of 1/80s (from the ISO Sensitivity menu). It will default to 1/60s camera shutter speed.

This is pretty much true of every model.

See D810 manual page 113 (Auto ISO notes), which says:

With a flash, the Auto ISO Minimum Shutter Speed (it is not a minimum, it is simply the threshold when Auto ISO starts advancing instead - meaning any advanced ISO will use that shutter speed, so choose it well. And if maximum ISO is not enough to do it, then shutter speed will necessarily go lower)...

Says if that setting is faster than the Minimum Shutter Speed With Flash (E1 menu, default 1/60 second ... so 1/80 is faster) that will be used instead. E1 cannot be increased faster than 1/60, but it only applies to camera mode A or P.

Slow Sync mode or Rear Curtain Sync mode will ignore the E1 menu Minimum shutter speed, and will use the actual metered shutter speed (very slow in dim places). But I think it will ignore Minimum shutter for Auto ISO too.

If you want some specific shutter speed, use camera mode M or S.

 

[WayneF]

I had a similar issue on the D600, and think the reason is that the pop-up flash cannot work in 1/250 Auto FP mode, so it won't work that way even as commander for a speedlight that can do HSS. When the Speedlight is on the camera, then the camera knows that it can do high-speed sync, so it doesn't default back to 1/60th shutter speed. What I'd like to know now is whether high speed will work with if you use a radio trigger. Also, have you tried a long sync cord instead of commander mode? I bet that would work.

Correct, the internal flash cannot do Auto FP HSS mode, but yes, it can be Commander for a remote that can. This just means that the internal flash must be disabled in Commander menu (group for Built In flash set to MODE "- -" to disable it). It is still the commander, it still flashes commands, but then it stops, and it will not contribute to the scene lighting.
If the internal flash is not disabled (MODE "- -" in Commander menu), it will not allow shutter speed to advance into Auto FP mode.

HSS cannot work with the vast majority of radio triggers, which only do simple Manual flash mode, requiring the simplest one pin trigger communication. Most of them cannot trigger faster than sync speed anyway, even if they could sync.

HSS is a system thing, the camera and flash sharing the mode to work together.

 

[Blade Canyon]

Correct, the internal flash cannot do Auto FP HSS mode, but yes, it can be Commander for a remote that can. This just means that the internal flash must be disabled in Commander menu (group for Built In flash set to MODE "- -" to disable it). It is still the commander, it still flashes commands, but then it stops, and it will not contribute to the scene lighting.

And that's the answer! Thank you!

 

[Foo Fighters]

Hi, thanks for the replies. I had actually read that before, but it still leaves me somewhat confused. Here's a line from that same page 113, when discussing minimum shutter speed only without the mention of flash.


"...Shutter speeds may drop below the selected minimum if optimum exposure can not be achieved at the ISO sensitivity chosen for Maximum sensitivity."


From the same page they start discussing the flash's relationship while using auto ISO sensitivity control they state the following


"...When a flash is used, minimum shutter speed will be set to the value selected for Minimum shutter speed unless this value is faster than Custom Setting e1 (Flash sync speed, 0 329) or slower than Custom Setting e2 (Flash shutter speed,
0 331), in which case the value selected for Custom Setting e2 will be used instead. Note that ISO sensitivity may be raised automatically when auto ISO sensitivity control is used in combination with slow sync flash modes (available with the built-in flash and the optional flash units listed on page 428), possibly preventing the camera from selecting slow shutter speeds."


If I plug in my values into the quote above: My minimum shutter speed is 1/80, which is NOT faster than the e1 setting of 1/250, and it's not slower than the e2 setting of flash shutter speed 1/60. Therefore I'm speculating whether this is a bug, or the first quote within this post trumps the second quote. It's perplexing to me, because if my flash is present, then theoretically it should have no issues obtaining correct exposure using the specified minimum shutter speed. Note: there are times, using the same settings, will give me faster shutter speed in commander mode, with the built-in flash. Additionally, just to clarify, the built-in flash's commander mode, is set to remote only "_ _"

 

[WayneF]

Hi, thanks for the replies. I had actually read that before, but it still leaves me somewhat confused. Here's a line from that same page 113, when discussing minimum shutter speed only without the mention of flash.


"...Shutter speeds may drop below the selected minimum if optimum exposure can not be achieved at the ISO sensitivity chosen for Maximum sensitivity."

Yes, that part is not only about flash. The job of Auto ISO is to try to give you an exposed picture. If boosting ISO to maximum is not enough to do it, then it must also reduce shutter speed to keep trying. This ISO Minimum Shutter Speed is not an absolute limit, it is a threshold for Auto ISO action.

The general philosophy of Auto ISO is that when the normal auto adjustments hit limits and can go no further, then Auto ISO kicks in for a second chance. For example, if in camera S mode, the camera reacts to dim light by opening the aperture more. But when that lens aperture is fully wide open, it can go no more, so then Auto ISO kicks in at that limit. If using camera S mode in dim light, all pictures will likely be at wide open aperture (auto ISO or not). Which does not always seem much of a plus.

But if using camera A mode, this concept of hitting a limit implies it is when the shutter speed hits its limit of 30 seconds, then Auto ISO would kick in. But that is not realistic use, so they added this new intermediate selectable limit (your 1/80 second in the ISO menu), to be the limit determining when Auto ISO kicks in. If using Auto ISO and camera A mode in dim light, all pictures will likely be at this shutter speed - so we should give it some thought.

In reality, choosing f/5.6 in camera A mode, and 1/80 second in this ISO menu, is generally no different than choosing camera Manual mode f/5.6 and 1/80 second, and letting Auto ISO deal with it. Either way, all pictures in workable dim light will be at f/5.6 and 1/80 second. We should be aware that this is what we are choosing.

Auto ISO increases are always operating at some limit. Some users think this may sometimes need greater individual attention than blindly relying on the automation.

From the same page they start discussing the flash's relationship while using auto ISO sensitivity control they state the following


"...When a flash is used, minimum shutter speed will be set to the value selected for Minimum shutter speed unless this value is faster than Custom Setting e1 (Flash sync speed, 0 329) or slower than Custom Setting e2 (Flash shutter speed,
0 331), in which case the value selected for Custom Setting e2 will be used instead. Note that ISO sensitivity may be raised automatically when auto ISO sensitivity control is used in combination with slow sync flash modes (available with the built-in flash and the optional flash units listed on page 428), possibly preventing the camera from selecting slow shutter speeds."


If I plug in my values into the quote above: My minimum shutter speed is 1/80, which is NOT faster than the e1 setting of 1/250, and it's not slower than the e2 setting of flash shutter speed 1/60. Therefore I'm speculating whether this is a bug, or the first quote within this post trumps the second quote. It's perplexing to me, because if my flash is present, then theoretically it should have no issues obtaining correct exposure using the specified minimum shutter speed. Note: there are times, using the same settings, will give me faster shutter speed in commander mode, with the built-in flash. Additionally, just to clarify, the built-in flash's commander mode, is set to remote only "_ _"

It said: When a flash is used, minimum shutter speed will be set to the value selected for Minimum shutter speed unless this value is faster than Custom Setting e1 (Flash sync speed, 0 329)

Which is true of your 1/80, so it did that.

or (it says OR) slower than Custom Setting e2 (Flash shutter speed (which was not true, but the first condition was true, so it did that)

 

[Zender]

You're definitely on the right track with the commander mode limitations.
It sounds like the D810's internal flash might be the culprit for the 1/60s shutter speed cap.

Here's what I'd try:

1. Check Flash Settings: Double-check your flash settings on the D810. Make sure the internal flash is set to Commander Mode with minimal power output (like "--"). You only want it to trigger the SB-910, not contribute its own light.
2. Radio Trigger Option: While you're stuck in the Caribbean paradise (rough life!), radio triggers are a great option for future reference. They bypass the camera's internal flash entirely and allow full use of the SB-910's capabilities, including high-speed sync.

Speaking of the Caribbean (removed link,) I recently used a radio trigger setup with my Nikon and an off-camera flash on a beach shoot. Worked like a charm for freezing action shots of surfers with the bright sunlight. No need for a super long shutter speed!

In the meantime, see if tinkering with the internal flash settings helps. Good luck and enjoy your future Caribbean adventures!