Lightroom- Why does auto white balance no longer work after changing camera profile?

I'm using NEF raw files from a Nikon D3100 in Lightroom 4.


Lets say for example I import a NEF file into Lightroom and click on 'auto' for white balance. The white balance in the image is adjusted correctly (somewhat). However, if I then change the camera profile (in the camera calibration section) from 'adobe standard' to 'camera standard' then the white balance in the image becomes very wrong (i.e goes all purple or something). I then have to set the white balance back to 'as shot' and correct it manually instead.



Why would 'auto white balance' no longer work just because I change the profile from 'adobe standard' to 'camera standard'?

Any ideas?

I would expect that for a different profile you would need to redo the White Balance if you set that beforehand, regardless of whether or not you used Auto. I tried it on a couple of my photos taken with the D600 and using LR5 and this doesn't happen. Not sure if it's a bug in 4 or not, but I can't recreate your issue.

To be honest, the camera calibration section of Lightroom is a portion of LR that really has no purpose. In reality it's just another preset wrapped up like a bell ans whistle. I would suggest that instead of fiddling with how Adobe thinks pictures out of your camera should look, go directly into LR and make the pictures look the way you think they should look.

Thanks Dave

I thought i would just supply 3 screenshots to show the problem progressing
1)

2)

3)

Notice the colour cast that's introduced in screenshot 3 (some NEF's are much worse)

I've uploaded the above NEF here if anyone wants to try it out on their system:
https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!1890&authkey=!AEQB07sMN2mmwSA&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.NEF

Adobe "As Shot" or any "Auto" are rarely your best White Balance choices.

As Shot WB tries to figure out what WB was set in the camera, it s NOT about what it should have been. Camera White Balance result is already in JPG files, but WB is not applied to Raw files, and its numeric value is not in the Exif either. There are proprietary numbers in the Exif, and "As Shot" is merely Adobes best guess what they mean (different cameras, etc). Again, it just tries to figure out what was set in the camera, and is not about what it should have been. There are inaccuracies, and As Shot is never the best value, we need to actually set WB in Raw files. As Shot just means you have not done it yet. The beauty is we can do this after we see it, to know what it needs and how it comes out.

Auto WB is just a try to look at the pixels we got and try to guess what they ought to have been. Auto is not about the light in the scene, it does not know the light at the scene.

Two better tries are:

1. If you KNOW you used flash, why not set flash WB to try to help the dumb automation? Or if you know it was shady daylight or cloudy, why not set those? Help it out. Good starting points. Looking at the picture later gives human brains strong clues, but it doesn't help the dumb automation much.

2. Standard White Card practices are near magic to actually tweak it right.


The Camera profiles offer choices like Standard, Neutral, Vivid, etc. They are supposed to manipulate the colors. These are not about White Balance, which is a different concern.

Wayne, thanks for your detailed reply

I've just tried out the idea with these 2 settings:

1) Profile 'adobe standard' and 'flash' for the white balance
2) Reset & then profile as 'camera standard' and 'flash' for the white blance

& the white balance result in the image is still quite different when you compared the two settings.

Use the setting that gives the results that you prefer. I can't say I ever bother with that profile menu, I just go with the Adobe value. When I might want one more flashy, I can simply adjust it the standard ways.

Sounds like good advice Wayne, TY

I wouldn't mind knowing why the white balance goes all haywire like that though, lol

paul_b said:

Sounds like good advice Wayne, TY

I wouldn't mind knowing why the white balance goes all haywire like that though, lol

Click to expand...

It seems like you're thinking about this all wrong. These settings have little to nothing to do with the real world. They represent some programmer idea at Adobe labs of what the WB might look like for a give camera. There is not testing of individual cameras, just a guess on their part. Nothing in LR should be taken as an absolute. All the pre-sets and calibrations and other items are merely a starting point for you as you render your image to match your personal vision of that image.

paul_b said:

Sounds like good advice Wayne, TY

I wouldn't mind knowing why the white balance goes all haywire like that though, lol

Click to expand...

FWIW, I don't see that effect, but perhaps my initial WB was closer.

I played with it, and I see this.



Left: White balance adjusted with card : 5800K -5 tint (Adobe Standard profile selected by default)
Center: Flash WB 5500K 0 tint
Right: Camera Standard profile (Flash 5500K unchanged)

There are subtle differences under closer inspection, but no more.

I am not using Lightroom, I have Photoshop CS6... which is same ACR module.

Dave_W said:

These settings have little to nothing to do with the real world. They represent some programmer idea at Adobe labs of what the WB might look like for a give camera.

Click to expand...

Understood, and in that case i think a strong purple colour cast on areas that should be white is a bit of a large margin of error though.

WayneF said:

Left: White balance adjusted with card : 5800K -5 tint (Adobe Standard profile selected by default)
Center: Flash WB 5500K 0 tint
Right: Camera Standard profile (Flash 5500K unchanged)

Click to expand...

hmm, maybe my problem is just specific to my camera, maybe a Lightroom bug for Nikon D3100

Wayne, i'd be interested if you also tried with my NEF too in ACR

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=F587D73C02F4DBBB!1890&authkey=!AEQB07sMN2mmwSA&v=3&ithint=photo%2c.NEF

There are Adobe ACR updates from time to time

Adobe - Lightroom : For Windows

Probably clicking the Update menu under Help gets them too.

paul_b said:

Understood, and in that case i think a strong purple colour cast on areas that should be white is a bit of a large margin of error though.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is. I suppose that's why no one ever uses camera calibration. But in order to do a true test, you should reset your image to the original each time you make a change or the changes will stack up on each other.

paul_b said:

Wayne, i'd be interested if you also tried with my NEF too in ACR

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?res...uthkey=!AEQB07sMN2mmwSA&v=3&ithint=photo,.NEF

Click to expand...

I do see some purple in Camera Standard. No explanation, I don't know, I don't use that.



Left to right:

As shot 5400K +9
WB clicked on white stripe in rear curtain background 4350K -10
WB sort of tweaked to center spikes in histogram 4700K. I didn't, but centering should include -10 too.
Flash WB 5500K 0 tint
Camera Standard with Flash WB

My notion is that 2 or 3 are the best ones (but I would have considered a $5 white card).
See White Balance Correction, with or without Raw

If you're running LR4 then any improvements made to the ACR module for LR5/CS6 won't be there, so the only way to replicate your problem would be to also use LR4.

WayneF said:

I do see some purple in Camera Standard. No explanation, I don't know, I don't use that.

Left to right:

As shot 5400K +9
WB clicked on white stripe in rear curtain background 4350K -10
WB sort of tweaked to center spikes in histogram 4700K. I didn't, but centering should include -10 too.
Flash WB 5500K 0 tint
Camera Standard with Flash WB

My notion is that 2 or 3 are the best ones (but I would have considered a $5 white card).
See White Balance Correction, with or without Raw

Click to expand...

Likely just the way Adobe has the Camera Standard calibrated for the D3100 - right or wrong. FWIW I get the same blues in LR5 and CS6 ACR when WB is set to Auto and any of the camera-specific profiles.

Dave_W said:

But in order to do a true test, you should reset your image to the original each time you make a change or the changes will stack up on each other.

Click to expand...

Oops. That is not right. It is true of JPG, we normally actually change the original data and its gone (Raw does offer an exception for that too).

One of the most major advantages of Raw is the lossless editing. Changes are NEVER applied to the Raw file. There is never anything to undo.
Raw simply saves the list of changes. When we make different changes, it simply edits the list, replaces one future instruction with another. These actual edits only occur at any output (or any viewing), only on the output, never to the original data. The original Raw pixels are never changed, we always start with the pristine original raw files every time, by merely opening the editor. We can even crop the dickens out of it, and then change our mind next month, and we see all the original pixels again.

Lossless editing.