Restricted shutter speeds when using flash?

WayneF

Senior Member
Hi people, I'm in shock .. .. Just bought a D3200 after having a D50 for 8 years .. the D50 could do this, so why not my D3200?!
Here's a shot I did on the D50, at 500th of a second, looking into the sun; with a fill flash..:
http://www.flitemedia.com/images/wa...estival 2012 - Quantum Healing Temple (2).jpg
Fill flash is an obvious part of photography right, are you telling me that my new camera can't do this?
I'm also doing skateboarding photography where I want fill flash etc .. ..
I completely agree with everything zbrandt has said, I'm absolutely in shock ..
Have I got this right?
Thnx



Suck it up, that's just how it is. :)

The Nikon D40, D50, and D70 had electronic shutters, implemented by enabling and disabling the CCD sensor chip. This is like almost every little compact camera does the shutter. There is a plus side (cheap is one), but Nikon stopped doing this, there are also downsides to it (flaring for one, doesn't work well in CMOS sensors for two).

But that way, the flash can sync at any speed (camera only allows 1/500 second if it knows the flash is present, but if you break communication between flash and camera, like using a PC sync cord, it will sync at any shutter speed.

The other DSLR models, including your D3100, has a genuine precision mechanical focal plane shutter, with quartz crystal clock regulating it, provided at great expense for your pleasure. :)

If you actually care to know the details,
see Four Flash Photography Basics we must know - Maximum Shutter Sync Speed

But except maybe for flash outdoors in sun, it is cause to count your blessings.
 
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eidian

Senior Member
Hi people, I'm in shock .. .. Just bought a D3200 after having a D50 for 8 years .. the D50 could do this, so why not my D3200?!
Here's a shot I did on the D50, at 500th of a second, looking into the sun; with a fill flash..:
http://www.flitemedia.com/images/wa...estival 2012 - Quantum Healing Temple (2).jpg
Fill flash is an obvious part of photography right, are you telling me that my new camera can't do this?
I'm also doing skateboarding photography where I want fill flash etc .. ..
I completely agree with everything zbrandt has said, I'm absolutely in shock ..
Have I got this right?
Thnx

You can, you just need to use different settings. I did similar photographs in Hawaii last week. I used the exposure meter to work within the 1/200 max shutter speed in Manual mode. After reviewing the first shot, I adjusted accordingly.

I swear, there is no substitute for a good flash. In a couple of photos my daughter and niece were wearing hats with the 13:00 sun behind them, the flash lit their faces perfectly. One thing that I've realized is that I have to throw out the specific ways I used my old Canon AE-1 and just be willing to experiment with the D3200. If I didn't, I would probably be disappointed too.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4
 

sOnIc

Senior Member
Thnx for the replies, I tried 200th of a second with skateboarding earlier and it was really bad; motion blur ruined it completely, even with panning for the moving target; dynamic focus area etc. Does buying something like the SB-700 AF Speedlight get around this? Gutted ain't a strong enough word ..
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Thnx for the replies, I tried 200th of a second with skateboarding earlier and it was really bad; motion blur ruined it completely, even with panning for the moving target; dynamic focus area etc. Does buying something like the SB-700 AF Speedlight get around this? Gutted ain't a strong enough word ..

Dropping the ambient exposure back a couple of stops will help, expose more with the flash (more main light instead of fill). The flash is a speedlignt, faster than the shutter, but sunlight is continuous and will still blur the action. So reduce the sunlight to reduce the blur.

The SB-700 is still a flash, and you have the same focal plane shutter, so it is the same.

One exception: The SB-700 can do Auto FP flash, but the D3100 cannot. FP mode can use any shutter speed, but otherwise this mode is reduced power, and would need five SB-700 working together to give the same power as one in regular flash mode.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
Right ok thanks .. gutted, disappointed, shocked .. gonna take a day or two to let this sink in ...

Join the club. It is just how life is. It is only any issue in bright sun, unimportant indoors where light is dim, and we need flash. It is hardly a new subject, and photographers learn ways to cope. :)
 

singlerosa_RIP

Senior Member
Hmmm. Here's a kinda crappy shot (self photo, messing around with 3 SB-800s). But, it's taken at 1/800 sec. (accidentally). D600 w/70-200 VRII.

JFS_3721.jpg
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Hmmm. Here's a kinda crappy shot (self photo, messing around with 3 SB-800s). But, it's taken at 1/800 sec. (accidentally). D600 w/70-200 VRII.


It looks to have the potential for some good lighting, if not underexposed so much. :)

No one is going to ask? Since the camera cannot sync flash at 1/800 second, it must have been Auto FP? That's why they call it Auto. :)
 

sOnIc

Senior Member
​Interesting ^, is this still relevant to the D3200?
Here's an example of why I want fill flash on a bright sunny day: http://flitemedia.com/images/DSC_0036.jpg
That image is ironically shot at 200th/sec but I didn't use the flash, and that is not a quick enough shutter speed to freeze the action properly .. other similar shots I've taken were closer to 1000th/sec in similar situations where I need fill light. The best shots from these sessions are almost all silhouette type images which are crying out for fill flash. I guess I could use a large lamp, or a light reflector, but I want to be free to run around the skatepark improvising etc, and it appears the D50/D70/D1x models do this perfectly as a result of the electronic shutter, where a newer top of the range DSLR cannot?! Can we not have both a real shutter and an electronic shutter?! I'm reading about flash duration on better speedlights; and Auto FP, but is this possible on the D3200 at all?
(I know I have a lot to learn, and I'm reading/watching tutorials on skate photography etc, all use flash, still confused tho, and I seam to have lost one of the best features of my old D50...)
 

WayneF

Senior Member
The sun makes dark harsh shadows, or silhouette views. That's just how it is. We learn to adapt, to work around it.

The focal plane shutter has maximum limits of when it is fully open to allow flash. That's just how it is. We learn to adapt, to work around it.

Better cameras do use focal plane shutters, however this focal plane sync speed is greater now than at any time in past history (i.e., it has always been that way).

Any camera model can still benefit from the extreme motion stopping speed of speedlghts (at lower power levels). This also needs to underexpose the ambient a couple of stops, to keep the sun from continuing to blur it. But the D3200/D5200 models do not do FP flash mode, even if flashes like SB-700 can do it.

One partial solution is the D7100 type of camera which has a little faster shutter. Its faster shutter can sync flash at 1/250 second formally, and it allows 1/320 second (in Auto FP mode, but without switching to FP flash mode).

And it also has Auto FP, which may handle adding fill at the closer distance. FP flash mode can allow any camera shutter speed, if you have enough wide aperture to compensate it (Sunny 16, bright sun, 1/6400 second at f/2.8, etc). FP levels may need more than one flash unit combined for power and range, but fill as such does not need as much level.

Not seriously suggesting it for action, but a large white reflector also adds more fill light on the shaded side, without adding shutter speed considerations.
 

daveg

Senior Member
Here's a case of an Outdoor Portrait with CLS Lighting.

1/200 @ f8 (Manual Exposure) darkened the BG slightly. The Main Flash (left) was on zero EC and the second flash (right) was on -1EC. Flash triggered by pop up flash at 1/128 Power. Flash Value Lock on the LHS of the face.

If the ambient had been brighter I might have been looking for 1/500 or 1/1000 and would have had to try FP Mode. But the flash power is then halved or even quartered and would have had to be placed a lot closer to the subject. It is something I am working on presently to see how far my setup will go.

DG
600_0286_768.jpg
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Here's a case of an Outdoor Portrait with CLS Lighting.

1/200 @ f8 (Manual Exposure) darkened the BG slightly. The Main Flash (left) was on zero EC and the second flash (right) was on -1EC. Flash triggered by pop up flash at 1/128 Power. Flash Value Lock on the LHS of the face.

If the ambient had been brighter I might have been looking for 1/500 or 1/1000 and would have had to try FP Mode. But the flash power is then halved or even quartered and would have had to be placed a lot closer to the subject. It is something I am working on presently to see how far my setup will go.

DG


The lighting does look real good.

Auto FP flash mode maximum is around 1/5 power, about -2.3 stops down from regular flash mode. Five FP flashes working together would match same one flash power in regular speedlight mode. Joe McNally touts FP flash use in bright sun, but he also uses four SB-900.
smile.gif


So the range is less, but the range (of direct flash) can be calculated/predicted. Several of the flash manuals have Guide Number charts for FP mode. SB-700 manual, pages H-25, H-26, for example.

People get excited to realize that fast shutter speed decimates FP flash power, but in regard to the shutter, they must not understand that FP flash is exactly the same situation as for the Sun (it is continuous light too). Twice the shutter speed is half the light, for both of them. Regular speedlight flash mode is not affected by shutter speed, but FP mode and the Sun are.

We see silly charts online computing how FP power varies with shutter speed. They must not realize FP becomes continuous light, it simply turns on, and stays on, and then the shutter opens and does all of the timing.

These GN charts are for ISO 100, and 1/500 second in FP mode. But it is a general purpose chart. The overwhelming idea we ought to know about FP mode is that it becomes continuous light now, which means Equivalent Exposures apply to it, same as like for sun light too.

So, for example, the SB-700 chart (DX mode) says GN 43.6 for 28mm zoom at full power FP. So therefore, ten feet computes 43.6/10 = f/4.4 at 1/500 second. This is for full exposure, so fill at -1EV would be 1.414 times this distance range. And ISO 200 would be 1.414 times this GN.

Metering is good, it is much more simple.
smile.png
But the chart helps us plan it out before we leave home, to know capabilities. The real point is, doubling shutter speed to 1/1000 second, and also opening aperture one stop (three third clicks) to compensate, is equivalent exposure, for FP flash, and for sun too, for any continuous light.

Meaning, the same 1/500 second Guide Number chart can be used for any faster shutter speed too (in this compensating way). Again, regular flash mode does NOT work that way.

Going to 1/2000 second is just one more aperture stop to compensate, but then it is the same exposure and the same range (assuming FP flash mode). This is quite a lot to know.

More FP at http://www.scantips.com/lights/flashbasics2b.html
.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
Yeah, lately, this site certainly does seem to be building.

I understand there are pros and cons about its format, but it seems a let down to me to put effort into what I know is posting good information, and then realize it is hidden off in some D3200 (plug in any model there) forum. Work is seen by only a limited few. :)

Grumbling, but it seems to me to instead need a more general photography problems posting forum. I could chose to post in another of course - most of which are about posting photos, which is good too, but as is, the questions are only here, spread out in many places. When often, they are not really specific to one model.

And for example, D3200 doesn't even do FP flash mode. Which is my own fault, I didn't think it out well enough.
 
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Bob Blaylock

Senior Member
I'm still fairly new to DSLR, but so far I've gotten excellent results with my D3200. I just have the 18-55mm lens that came with the camera and recently picked up a AF-S DX VR 55-200mm G ED lens. Two types of photography I've always loved - macro and high speed / stop motion. However, I don't understand why my shutter speed is restricted to a max of 1/200 when using the built in flash, and apparently using an external flash unit will make no difference.

Here is my attempt to explain the issue, in a different manner than I've noticed anyone else trying to do.

Like nearly all SLRs, the D3200 uses a focal plane shutter. As the name implies, this shutter is located just in front of the focal plane—in front of the film (or in this case, the image sensor)—rather than in or near the lens as is usual in non-SLR cameras.

The shutter consists of two curtains. With the shutter set to 1/x of a second, the first curtain begins moving across the film/sensor, uncovering it, and 1/x of a second later, the second curtain follows, covering the film/sensor.

These curtains move at a finite speed. In the case of the D3200, it takes 1/200 of a second for the curtain to move across the sensor. This means that at any speed faster than 1/200 of a second, the second curtain will begin covering the sensor before the first has finished uncovering it; and the sensor will not, at any time, be fully-uncovered. By 1/400 of a second, only half of the sensor is uncovered at any time. At 1/800, only a quarter is uncovered at any time. By the time you get up to the top speed of 1/4000 of a second, only 1/20 of the sensor is uncovered at any given time.

You can think of the action of the shutter, at this high speed, as simply being a slit that is 1/20 of the size of the whole sensor, moving across the sensor at such a speed that it takes 1/200 of a second to complete the trip.

Xenon-tube electronic flash units have a very short duration—typically 1/500 to 1/2000 of a second. This is why they are useful for stopping very fast motion. But since this duration is shorter than the time it takes the shutter curtains to cross the film plane, at any shutter speed where the film plane is not fully-uncovered while the flash fires, those parts that are covered at that time will not be exposed by the flash.

This has always been an issue with focal plane shutters and xenon-based flash units; and it probably always will be. Be glad that your D3200 can use these flash units at 1/200 of a second. My forty-year-old F2 (Nikon's top-of-the-line when it was built in the early 1970s) can only do so up to 1/80, and that is slightly better than the 1/60 that was typical of most SLRs of its period.

In bright enough sunlight, you can use the shutter itself to stop motion, without depending on the flash. In theory, this ought to be even better, since the shutter can go up to 1/4000 of a second. I don't know what the duration is of the D3200's built-in flash, but as I said before, 1/500 to 1/2000 is typical of such units. However, at high speed, focal plane shutters are subject to some other distortion issues related to rolling shutter effects.

In any event, this is an issue that you will always have with any camera that uses a focal plane shutter, which includes nearly all SLRs. If you want to get away from this issue, and still have a DSLR, then I think your only options are some offerings from Hasselblad, but if you were someone who could afford a Hasselblad, then I doubt if you would have started with Nikon's “entry-level” model.

A water splash stopped using the built-in flash.

ASC_0445.jpg

And outdoors, using the shutter.

DSC_0769.jpg
 
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Yeah, lately, this site certainly does seem to be building.

I understand there are pros and cons about its format, but it seems a let down to me to put effort into what I know is posting good information, and then realize it is hidden off in some D3200 (plug in any model there) forum. Work is seen by only a limited few. :)

Grumbling, but it seems to me to instead need a more general photography problems posting forum. I could chose to post in another of course - most of which are about posting photos, which is good too, but as is, the questions are only here, spread out in many places. When often, they are not really specific to one model.

And for example, D3200 doesn't even do FP flash mode. Which is my own fault, I didn't think it out well enough.

Most of the people here that I know of use the "What's New?" button on the yellow menu bar. That way the see all posts that they have not looked at and are new since the last time they checked. I have that link set as a favorite in my browser so that is what it opens to. I never even bother to look in categories or sections anymore but instead look at the list of new topics. I generally look at it to see if there are any responses to any of my thread first, then I look at the 365 posts to see new photos. After I go through that I look at the list and see if anything catches my eye that I might find interesting and read and respond to them. I shoot with the D5100 but many topics as you stated go across the board and apply to many cameras. After I read all the ones I am interested in I then click of the "Mark Forums Read" and that clears the list of all new topics. That way the next time I come of I get a fresh list.
 
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