1:1 at f/36 Versus 1:2 at F/8 Cropped

J-see

Senior Member
Here you go:

DSC_5061.jpg

DSC_5062.jpg

I scaled them to the site format but this is what the full shots looked like. Not perfect but it's that hard to do this right, I'll call it quits for now.

I measured my distances and even the sizes on my LCD and I still didn't manage to do it perfectly.

But, and I'll ask again; what's the biggest difference between both approaches?
 
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Eyelight

Senior Member
The J-see f/8 shots are .45 the magnification of the f/32 shots. Here's a funny because my f/8 shot was .46 the magnification of the f/32 shot.

I think I know the culprit. When I calculate the DoFs, I get 1:1 at f/32 to be 31% larger than 1:2 at f/8 (using a DX CoC). If the DoFs were indeed equal, then the f/8 at 1:2 may edge out the f/32 at 1:1.

My calculation is one I put together, so no guarantee, but it seems to be close looking at the results. Just thought of something I need to check.
 

J-see

Senior Member
The J-see f/8 shots are .45 the magnification of the f/32 shots. Here's a funny because my f/8 shot was .46 the magnification of the f/32 shot.

I think I know the culprit. When I calculate the DoFs, I get 1:1 at f/32 to be 31% larger than 1:2 at f/8 (using a DX CoC). If the DoFs were indeed equal, then the f/8 at 1:2 may edge out the f/32 at 1:1.

My calculation is one I put together, so no guarantee, but it seems to be close looking at the results. Just thought of something I need to check.

It's strange we both have the exact same magnification difference. I measured it and only after upload and scaling noticed it didn't match. Either we see a different format on our LCD or this is pure coincidence. I'd have to check if the LCD shows 2*3.
 

Woodyg3

Senior Member
Contributor
J-see, in your first two shots it's very clear that your 1:1 f/32 shot has better depth of field than your cropped shot at f/8.

While it is true that the depth of field of a f/32 shot is the same as an f/8 shot at double the distance, this is the depth of field as viewed at full frame size. You have to remember that you must crop the f/8 shot to one quarter of it's original size to get the objects in the shot to be the same size. This greatly decreases the depth of field as viewed by the human eye. Taken to a further extreme, an f/2 shot at four times the distance also has the same depth of field as teh original f/32 shot in a full frame shot. If cropped to 1/16th of it's original size, the f/2 shot would have extremely shallow depth of field, no where near the f/32 shot from a quarter of the distance.
 

Eyelight

Senior Member
Pure coincidence on the .45 and .46 magnification of the f/8 shots. I just eyeballed mine using the width of the flower. Easiset way to gauge 1:2 would be to place a rule in the view and just shoot 2x the width.



The thought I had to stop and think.

DX has a greater depth of field than FX at the same view size. If you take a DX and an FX and put a 50mm lens on both, the DX has to back up to get the same view. If you put a wider lens on the DX to match the FX 50mm view, the DX has the larger DoF. In both cases the DX is shooting at lower magnification.

Put a 50mm on the DX and FX and shoot from the same distance, the FX will have a larger DoF. Similarly, doing macro work at 1:1 the FX has a larger DoF. This is because in both cases the magnification is the same, the DX image is smaller and must be enlarged more.
 

J-see

Senior Member
The results are close. My lens performs almost at 80% at 5.6, 78% at the f/8 I used and dives to 53 or 54% at f/32. There's little I can do about that but it's still a pretty decent loss. The detail I might trade in by shooting from further and scaling up won't be that bad I dive below that 53%.

So even if we'd consider it equal, at f/8 I still gained:

26_2049425i.jpg26_2049425i.jpg
26_2049425i.jpg26_2049425i.jpg
 

J-see

Senior Member
Pure coincidence on the .45 and .46 magnification of the f/8 shots. I just eyeballed mine using the width of the flower. Easiset way to gauge 1:2 would be to place a rule in the view and just shoot 2x the width.



The thought I had to stop and think.

DX has a greater depth of field than FX at the same view size. If you take a DX and an FX and put a 50mm lens on both, the DX has to back up to get the same view. If you put a wider lens on the DX to match the FX 50mm view, the DX has the larger DoF. In both cases the DX is shooting at lower magnification.

Put a 50mm on the DX and FX and shoot from the same distance, the FX will have a larger DoF. Similarly, doing macro work at 1:1 the FX has a larger DoF. This is because in both cases the magnification is the same, the DX image is smaller and must be enlarged more.


There's a difference between DX and FX indeed. It's the only time I have more DoF than a DX but I trade that in for a "smaller" bug in my shot. It isn't smaller on my sensor but I have more sensor and only the same amount of pixels as most DX. But for DOF it doesn't matter since it scales identical. At least in the sense we experimented with. FX just scales a larger one than a DX.
 

Eyelight

Senior Member
Neither in my flower shots nor J-see's bit shots is the DoF equal between the 1:1 f/32 and the 1:2 f/8 and this seems pretty obvious to me. If it is obvious to me, it must be glaring to anyone who can actually see.
 
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J-see

Senior Member
Neither in my flower shots or J-see's bit shots is the DoF equal between the 1:1 f/32 and the 1:2 f/8 and this seems pretty obvious to me. If it is obvious to me, it must be glaring to anyone who can actually see.

Your flower shot was f/36 if I'm not mistaken and the f/8 at 0.55x like mine which makes them pretty different. If you add to that some difference in positioning, it can give the impression the one has more than the other.
 

Woodyg3

Senior Member
Contributor
J-see, from the very link you posted with the macro depth of field calculator:

"Depth of field defined based on what would appear sharp in an 8x10 print viewed from a distance of one foot"

The 1:2 shot would have to be printed at FOUR TIMES the size of the 1:1 print for objects to be the same size, that's where you lose depth of field.

If this weren't true, we could take an f/1.8 shot with our trusty 50mm lens of a flower 20 feet away, crop the picture and have the entire flower be in perfect focus. It just doesn't work this way.

 

WayneF

Senior Member
Wayne, how often do I need to repeat that the DOF can be calculated and you get the exact same DoF by either closing down or shooting at a lower magnification?

I don't even understand that. I see the words, but too bizarre. Repeating can't help. I'm hoping you just typed it wrong.

No, the facts are that depth of field can be crudely APPROXIMATED by calculation. There is little magic in it, the formula just uses someones ARBITRARY estimate of CoC (history has had several different estimates of it), and which applies only to a standardized magnification of that CoC into a viewing situation. Which CoC involves an 8x10 inch print viewed at 10 inches, which you ignore. We can ignore the formula and speak of relative DOF being greater or less, but if calculating wishful numbers, the standard situation overwhelmingly applies (and it is still an approximation).

Plus, you're calculating for macro, and you don't even know the focal length at macro. If at 1:1, then the focal length by definition is equal to the subject distance in front of lens (so to speak, the Thin Lens equation), but which is actually computed to the internal lens node that you don't even know either. Your DOF numbers are just very coarse guesses (and apply to the standard situation anyway). The DOF formula will work better at like ten feet (but still just an approximation).

You really never have noticed that stopping down obviously improves DOF? That can't be what you meant, since DOF is about things like aperture. Everyone knows that is the fundamental. It's really hard to believe you actually said that, but it might explain why you're not getting it. :) Look at your own pictures above, at the green bit and the text background. Not good examples, but they still make the point.

It's not about shooting at lower magnification. That just requires greater viewing enlargement. It can include subject distance and focal length, but also is about enlarged print size. It's all about viewing the overall magnification. It is about what the eye sees, and the numerical concept is also based on viewing and judging an 8x10 inch print at 10 inches. This is why the CoC estimate changes with sensor size, it's about that OVERALL magnification to the eye.

The overall concept of calculating DOF NUMBERS is about the overall magnification which enlarges the tiny CoC on the sensor plane to be a size that the eye can perceive it (in that standard viewing situation). You ignore all of that. It also greatly magnifies any error of an arbitrary estimated CoC value, so the numbers are at best just an approximation. The things more important to know are the factors (aperture, focal length, subject distance, and sensor size) that allow us to improve RELATIVE DOF, for a better overall image.
 
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J-see

Senior Member
Look here's the Wiki on DoF:

Depth of field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The DoF in macro is a fixed formula with an outcome depending upon magnification and aperture alone. Changing one of both, or both affects the DoF which implies that you can get the same DoF by using a low magnification wider open or a higher magnification closed down.

That's why the DoF of f/8 and f/32 at their different magnifications is identical. You can use other settings too and get similar results. So in the end this is not about DoF differences since there are none but about quality loss.

How much quality do I lose when shooting close down fully embracing diffraction versus how much quality do I lose by shooting a bit further and cropping.

I'd say at worst you lose the same quality cropping than shooting closed down.

Here's about diffraction too:

Depth of field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Eyelight

Senior Member
Your flower shot was f/36 if I'm not mistaken and the f/8 at 0.55x like mine which makes them pretty different. If you add to that some difference in positioning, it can give the impression the one has more than the other.

The #3 flower shot shows the DoF quite well as neither the tip of the purple thing nor the base is as sharp as the middle.

Are you saying that in the shots of the bits, that the DoF is the same between the f/8 and the f/32??? It seems obvious to me that it is not due to the background being more blurred at less magnification.
 

J-see

Senior Member
The #3 flower shot shows the DoF quite well as neither the tip of the purple thing nor the base is as sharp as the middle.

Are you saying that in the shots of the bits, that the DoF is the same between the f/8 and the f/32??? It seems obvious to me that it is not due to the background being more blurred at less magnification.

If you shoot f/8 at a certain magnification while f/32 at another, both DoF can be equal. The same goes for other apertures or magnifications. Both affect DoF and make it larger or smaller so if you increase the one while decreasing the other, you can keep the same DoF at all kinds of combinations.

If I shoot my lens at 1x I will always have the same DoF at a certain aperture. If I switch my 200mm with a 60mm and shoot that at 1:1, nothing changes in regards to DoF.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
I can imagine. Focal length plays NO role in macro or DoF for macro. A normal DoF calculator can not be used for this.

You're kidding yourself. Your Wikipedia link about macro just converts focal length to magnification (as they clearly show). There is no magnification without focal length.

1:1 is a magnification, and it is like Wikipedia says: "more convenient" for macro.
It is not different rules, its about how lenses work. There are just more approximations at macro.

Like they say there:

da61347e4ed36704becbb10c146b1dbe.png


m is magnification. f is focal length. s there is subject distance to sensor plane. s-f is distance in front of Thin Lens. But at macro, we don't know f or s-f. But if 1:1, then f and s-f are equal (1:1), therefore f = s/2 (Thin Lens).


What exactly do you consider to be or to show DOF in your lightbulb pictures?
 
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J-see

Senior Member
You're kidding yourself. Your Wikipedia link about macro just converts focal length to magnification (as they clearly show).

1:1 is a magnification, and it is like Wikipedia says: "more convenient" for macro.
It is not different rules, its about how lenses work. There are just more approximations at macro.

Like they say there:

View attachment 143823

You're right Wayne. Now excuse me, I got a B&W funeral to attend.
 
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