Tamron Vs. Sigma Vs. Camera

ryan20fun

Senior Member
Hello All.

I've been keeping an eye on the discussions about the Tamron 150-600mm and the Sigma C 150-600mm.
Right now I am favoring the Sigma as I can get the USB dock if I need to make adjustments for the focusing and the firmware updates is nice too.

But my main/bigger dilema is wether or not I will be able to get a fast enough shutter speed at the long end with my D3200.
I don't want to go over ISO 800 as I find 1600 to be too much, But I will use it if I have too (Better to get the shot then to worry over if you can see each feather on the bird Etc).

Now I've seen some members saying what a difference it is to go from a D3100/D3200 to the D7100/D7200, But how much of the is in the image quality department?

Right now I am trying to use shutter speeds atleast as fast the the current focal length, VR helps when it is overcast so the issue may not be so big.
How good it the VR of the Tamron/Sigma compared to the 70-300 VR?
Here in south africa is pretty sunny, The problem for me it when it gets overcast I have to push up the ISO a bit.

I mainly shoot birds, I have also gotton some shots from a reserve for big wildlife( giraffe, wildebeast, zebra, rhino, vulture, eagle, buzzard, Etc ), So birds are my main focus.

I have access to a lot of weavers and some other birds at my home where I can get within 10-15m of them, Its when going to other places that the distance make my 70-300mm rather short.

The lens would be better as the bird will fill the frame (alot more), But shutter speed...
I plan on getting both the lens and camera, But at one first then the other when I have the money, So what advice can you give me?

Thanks in advance.

-Edit
There is a D7100 on special for the same price as the Tamron/Sigma for this month or till stocks last.
 
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480sparky

Senior Member
The lens itself has no bearing on what shutter speeds you can set the camera to use. You really can't just say "I'm not going to use anything over ISO 800" as low light might simply dictate that you must.

Good hand-holding technique will improve your keeper rate in poor light. Here's an example:

Freedom_2987post.jpg



  • Camera make:NIKON CORPORATION
  • Camera model:NIKON D7100
  • Date/Time:2014:10:26 15:51:56
  • Flash used:No
  • Focal length:420.0mm (35mm equivalent: 630mm)
  • Exposure time:0.050 s (1/20)
  • Aperture:f/7.1
  • ISO equiv.:400
  • Exposure bias:-0.67
  • Whitebalance:Auto
  • Metering Mode: pattern
  • Exposure:aperture priority (semi-auto)
 
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ryan20fun

Senior Member
Thanks for the reply!

My handholding tenchnique does need some more practice.
How did you get that shot?, I don't think I would have been able to acheive such a slow shutter speed, Yet :)

So I should go for the better lens and then push to get more light instead of using the camera as a crutch?

I'm just worried that I am going to get the lens and then I am not going to be able to use the long end, But you have shown definite proof that it can be done.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Thanks for the reply!

My handholding tenchnique does need some more practice.
How did you get that shot?, I don't think I would have been able to acheive such a slow shutter speed, Yet :)

So I should go for the better lens and then push to get more light instead of using the camera as a crutch?

I'm just worried that I am going to get the lens and then I am not going to be able to use the long end, But you have shown definite proof that it can be done.

It was taken with the Tamron 150-600 at 420mm at 1/20sec. : hand-held. Yes, the lens' VC was turned on. I doubt I would have gotten a sharp image without it in that case.

One of the basic skills that is required in the art of photography is the ability to hold a camera steady without the use of a tripod or monopod. I realize that a good, solid tripod should be a part of everyone's gear line-up, but sometimes using it may just not be possible. Perhaps where you intend to shoot does not allow them. Perhaps weight is an issue, such as a 2-week backpacking trek through the back country. Maybe you had a Senior Moment and you just plain forgot to bring the QR plate. Or sometimes there just isn't time to set a tripod up.

So let's delve into the various methods utilized to hold the camera steady and get a sharp image.

The 1/Focal Length Rule

This is a rule encountered early in many a shooter's life. Insert the focal length of the lens used (expressed in millimeters [mm]) under the 1, and that's the minimum shutter speed you should use. For instance, if your lens is 200mm, a good minimum shutter speed to use would be 1/200th sec.

I don't care for the word 'rule' in most cases, especially when it comes to photography. This isn't set in stone. I prefer to call it a 'recommendation'. There's no law that says when you're using a 200mm lens, you cannot shoot at 1/150th of a second as a shutter speed. In this case, the 1/FL is simply a guideline. A basic starting-off point for beginners to use.

Of course, some people will be able to use slower shutter speeds. Others, due to age, medical conditions or whatnot, may need to use higher shutter speeds. That's why this 'rule' should be considered more a 'recommendation' instead. Shooting that 200mm lens at 1/150 sec. isn't going to get one arrested by the Shutter Speed Police. More to the point, the better you get at hand-holding a camera set to lower shutter speeds, the more confidence you will gain. And the benefit will be a better keeper rate.

The reason this 'rule' works is due to the fact that possible camera movement is related to the focal length used. Telephoto lenses not only magnify the subject, they also magnify any camera movement. Ever look at a telescope used by astronomers? Ever see one that's not on a tripod, or some other sort of sturdy mount? That's due to the extreme magnification telescopes offer. Couple this magnification effect with the size and weight associated with long lenses, and you'll see the benefit of learning better hand-holding technique.

At the other end of the scale, wide-angle lenses tend to minimize the same camera movement instead of magnifying it. So while you would use 1/500 sec when using a 500mm lens, you can usually get away with using 1/20 sec with a 20mm.

Turn off the Image Stabilization

Yep, that's right. Turn off that VR. Or IS, or OS, or VC... whatever your camera brand calls it. Image stabilization mechanisms are great tools, but they're not intended to be a set-and-forget tool. They're only useful in certain situations. In others, they afford no help at all.

VR%20off.jpg


And in some situations, they can actually work against you. So having it turned on may actually cause a blurry image where had it been off the image would be pin-sharp. Take some time to check around on the internet for information about your specific camera to learn when you should be turning the VR on.

Get that ISO up

Many beginners get told, "Use the 'base ISO' when shooting. You'll get sharper images with less noise doing that." 'Base ISO' is the native ISO the camera sensor is manufactured for. Other ISOs will tend to increase noise, and the further you get away from this base ISO, the worse the noise becomes.

ISO.jpg


However, this can cripple many into thinking that shooting at higher ISOs should be avoided at all costs. So one shoots at the base ISO, only to end up with lots of blurry images simply due to the shutter speed not being fast enough.

So would you rather have noisy but sharp images, or image that has no noise but they're all blurry? Me, I'll take the first choice. Cameras are getting better with dealing with noise at higher ISOs, and today's software is MUCH better at handling it in post.

True, some cameras are total garbage at, say, ISO 6400, while others shine. So how far up the ISO scale you're willing to go depends not only on your gear, but the level of noise you're willing to accept. The point is, don't be afraid to get that ISO up there if the situation warrants it.

Breathing

One of the two things us bipedal humans have working against us in holding a camera still is we are cursed with a repository system. This means our chest walls move in and out as we suck in air, then expel it. Fortunately, this is something we can control, even if only temporarily.

The first thing to remember is to be conscious of your breathing. Imagine climbing a steep trail to be awarded with a stunning view spread out in front of you. You're panting and wheezing like a dog chasing a stick, so you must remember to suppress that urge to raise the camera to your eye. Take a moment. Let your respirations drop down to a much lower and controllable rate.

Once that's done, you can take it a step further and borrow from the handbook for firearms shooters. Since it's possible to stop breathing for a moment by 'holding your breath', you can use this to your advantage. Take a deep breath, let it halfway out, then take the shot. This technique will remove most of your respiration movements from the equation.

Heart rate

As with your respiration, you can, to a limited degree, control your heart rate. Of course, there's no way to just stop your heart from beating like you hold your breath, but you can let your heart rate drop down to a more manageable rate. As in the example above, climbing the steep trail, your heart is pounding from the work-out. Again, be conscious of your heart rate and let it return to 'normal' instead of taking the shot while your heart is pounding furiously.

Of course, these last two techniques won't help if you're forced to be physically active while your shooting, such as running up and down the sidelines of a football game to keep up with the action. But simply being aware that your breathing and heart rate can induce camera movement that in some cases can be controlled, you'll be able to 'get the shot' that you might otherwise toss in the recycle bin if you hadn't been thinking.

Don't jam the shutter button

This is a common problem with newbies. They hold their finger well above the shutter release, then jam the shutter button down in one swift motion when they want to take the photo. This is a very easily corrected problem, and again we'll take a page from the handbook of firearm shooters: "Slowly squeeze the trigger."

Finger.gif


Let your finger rest on the button, but don't apply pressure until you're ready. Most cameras today have two functions to the shutter release: a 'half-press' will initiate the auto-focus and metering systems, and a 'full-press' will trigger the shutter.

Get in the habit, whenever possible, to gently press the shutter button halfway down. Let the camera confirm autofocus, then slowly press the rest of the way down to trip the shutter.

Not all situations will benefit from this technique as some will require a rapid-fire shooting system. But if you have the time, this trick will be invaluable and help increase your keeper rate.

Spread the feet

The human body wasn't designed to really hold something in an awkward position, such as a camera. But we can use our own bodies to our advantage. Most people will take a photo with their feet together, turning themselves into a semi-rigid monopod. And while a monopod proper is a useful tool, one made of flesh and muscles isn't exactly sturdy.

So instead of being a monopod, we have the ability to become a bipod (after all, we are bipedal creatures, aren't we?). So spread your feet apart! No, not to where you're uncomfortable (like you see in the cop shows; "Spread your feet! More! More!"). But 24" is more than enough to help stabilize your upper body.

feet.jpg


Lean against something solid

This is a technique I use religiously. Anything solid will work. I've leaned against walls, door frames, car bumpers, rocks, trees, fence posts, desks, park benches, parking meters,.... you name it, my knees, the backs of my hand holding the camera, my elbows and even my back have been pressed against it.

It doesn't matter what it is.... if it's solid and steady, you can take advantage of it. And the higher up on your body it is solid, the better. But even pressing your knees against the bumper of a car is a help. If you have something solid to lean your back, shoulders or chest against, that's a tremendous advantage! Of course, the solid object may not be in the ideal place you need to get the shot you want, and you may have to adjust your interpretation of the scene, but that might be a small price to pay to get the sharpest capture.

Lean.jpg.jpg


Sure, you might look like a dork trying to "reproduce with a parking meter", but who cares? If it means the difference between a bunch of shots being trashed and getting that one shot that's a keeper, hey... that's the name of the game!

Hold the camera against something solid

If pressing your body against something solid helps, take it a step further and hold the camera itself against the solid object. Innumerable times I've held my camera up against the same objects listed above and obtained sharp photos. The real trick here is to remember to look around for possible usable objects that are solid.

hold%20against.jpg


Use self-timer

Imagine this scenario: You're in the state capitol building (or other public building) and there's an absolutely gorgeous dome straight above you. What do most people do when they want to take a photo of this dome? They lean back and hold their camera above their tilted back head.

self%20timer.jpg


If there's tons of light, that's fine. But many old buildings with these beautiful domes aren't exactly well-lit, and we need to use long shutter speeds to get a good shot. Of course, such slow shutter speeds also mean there's a chance we'll end up a blurry picture.

Enter the lowly self-timer. How can it help you in this situation? Easy! You're standing on a floor, aren't you? And how much will that floor be moving? Not much, I'm sure. So engage the self-timer and simply set your camera on the floor facing straight up and walk away or crouch down so you're not in the frame. Let the camera fire the shutter.

And you thought self-timers were only for getting into your own picture!

Continuous High

Does your camera have a Continuous High mode? That might be all you need in some cases. Instead of repeatedly pressing the shutter button, which may cause you to move the camera every time you push down, using CH mode removes your finger movement from the equation. Fire off 4 or 5 shots, and you'll find one in there that's sharp.

Get down low

Who says every shot must be taken at eye level? It's not illegal to get down on your knees, or sit down altogether. It's also fine to lay on your stomach, side or even back! Laying on your stomach allows you to make your forearms into a great bipod. Again, you may look strange, but we are consummate photographers who don't' care what others think.

Get%20low.jpg


Another trick I use is to kneel down on my right knee, resting my left elbow on my on my right knee. I cradle my camera in my left hand and use my right to trip the shutter. This makes my left foot/left leg/left arm/left hand a rudimentary monopod.

monopod.jpg


Getting down low is a wonderful method to gain a bit more ability to steady your camera.

Why?

OK, so your lenses have VR/IS/OS/VC. Why on earth do you need to learn to hold your camera steadier? Simple... image stabilization, while a great tool, isn't a cure-all for every situation. Eventually, you'll come across a scene that the IS just isn't up to taking care of.

And not all lenses have image stabilization. Especially older glass. And don't discount older lenses simply because they're not filled chock-full of the latest gee-whiz technology. There's plenty of glass out there that don't have auto-focus motors, image stabilization mechanisms or top-end coatings that can still provide you with fantastic images if they're used by someone using the right techniques.

In fact, as of the time of my writing this, only 5 of the 26 lenses I own have image stabilization. And only one of those five has it turned on by default. The other four I leave turned off unless I find I need it.

And proper hand-holding is one of those techniques that every photographer should strive to improve on.

PRACTICE!

So get out there and practice! No, you don't need to go out to a certain location and make a concerted effort to get a particular image in order to practice. You can try any of the techniques right in your own home at any time.

Got 5 minutes before the Big Game starts? A few minutes at the end of your lunch break at work? Grab your camera, set it to a lower ISO and a small aperture and practice shooting at 1/15 of a second. Just take some shots of your living room or office. You're not shooting for the cover of National Geographic here, folks. You're taking some quick JPEGs so you can pixel-peep the results on the computer.

Once you get 1/15 down, set the shutter to 1/8 and practice that. Use the various methods above, and keep working at it until you 'master' 1/8. Then it's on to 1/4! Of course, everyone will have their limit, and it will vary from person to person. But the further down the shutter speed scale you become proficient at, the better your images will be overall.

The idea here is to train your brain to first stop and think about using any of the many methods available to you (and at NO COST!) that can increase your chances of getting that sharp image. Once you train yourself, you'll find it becomes second nature.

Once a technique become automatic, you'll find your keeper rate starts to climb.

And that's the goal! Wouldn't it be nice to be able to use your dream 800mm lens to shoot wildlife with?.... at 1/60-sec?...... while sitting in a canoe?........... with a stiff breeze blowing across the lake? OK, I'll admit, not many people can actually do that, but I'll bet those who can are keenly aware of all the steadying techniques out there.
 

Blacktop

Senior Member
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And this is why I love this forum. (Yes I know, I'm not supposed to start a sentence with the word "and").
 

Spottydumplings

Senior Member
The 1/Focal Length Rule

This is a rule encountered early in many a shooter's life. Insert the focal length of the lens used (expressed in millimeters [mm]) under the 1, and that's the minimum shutter speed you should use. For instance, if your lens is 200mm, a good minimum shutter speed to use would be 1/200th sec.

One thing to remember with this "rule" when using a crop sensor camera is that you should use the effective focal length of the lens, not the marked length.
 

mikew_RIP

Senior Member
One thing to remember with this "rule" when using a crop sensor camera is that you should use the effective focal length of the lens, not the marked length.

Never understood the reasoning for that,the lens covers a DX sensor but when on a FX it covers the same area and more,it doesn't get any longer.
 

J-see

Senior Member
Never understood the reasoning for that,the lens covers a DX sensor but when on a FX it covers the same area and more,it doesn't get any longer.

The area it covers might be the same but it doesn't cover the same amount of pixels on each cam. The more pixels/surface, the higher the shutter has to be relative to a cam that has less pixels/surface.

I have to shoot the D810 slightly faster than the D750 to get the same hit rate at slower shutters.

If a DX and FX have the same pixels/surface area, the same shutter will get the same blur at pixel level.
 

J-see

Senior Member
It's about pixel density indeed. If I put a 300mm on my DX or on my FX, the subject travels at the same speed across my sensor but if my DX has 1.5 times the pixel density, I have to shoot it 1.5 times as fast to pixel freeze the shot.

If a bird travels 1mm surface area on my sensor during 1 second, I need a shutter of 1 second divided by the pixels my sensor has in that millimeter of surface.

For a DX that's (roughly) 6000pix/24mm = 1/250s.
For a similar MPix FX that's 6000pix/36mm = 1/166s.

The only difference between both is that the subject can travel further on the FX sensor.

For shake it is the same, each fraction I move during exposure is magnified in relation to pixel density.

A D3000 as an example can be shot slower since it has less pixels. 3872/23.6 = 1/164s; almost identical as the 24Mpix FX.

It shows that even when there is a general rule of second/(focal length * crop) it really depends on cam vs cam.
 
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