What do you suppose this means?

Dave_W

The Dude
I often take shots in bursts of 2 and I've noticed that more often than not the second shot will have a bit of a sharper than the first shot. To you suppose this means I'm introducing camera shake when I press the shutter release? Or could it have something to do with the auto-focus? I'm inclined to think it's camera shake but wondering if anyone has noticed this effect.
 

grandpaw

Senior Member
I often take shots in bursts of 2 and I've noticed that more often than not the second shot will have a bit of a sharper than the first shot. To you suppose this means I'm introducing camera shake when I press the shutter release? Or could it have something to do with the auto-focus? I'm inclined to think it's camera shake but wondering if anyone has noticed this effect.

Take a look at the EXIF data and see if it was a slow enough shutter speed that camera shake could even be a factor. You have fast lenses or ones that have VR on them so I would be interested in knowing which lens was used and the settings. Was the VR turned on? Jeff
 

AC016

Senior Member
As far as i know, your first shot will always have some camera shake in it, just by the force you use to depress the button. That is why it is always advisable to shoot in burst mode. You will always hear that piece of advice when looking into shooting sports for example and that is why it is always nice to have a high FPS when shooting sports.
 

Dave_W

The Dude
Take a look at the EXIF data and see if it was a slow enough shutter speed that camera shake could even be a factor. You have fast lenses or ones that have VR on them so I would be interested in knowing which lens was used and the settings. Was the VR turned on? Jeff
It may be as simple as having too slow a shutter speed, you point out. I was using a monopod with my 70-300 at 300mm and many of the soft photos were at 1/125 sec w/o VR on. So even the slightest jarring could account for the softness. But there were times I shot at 1/250 sec and the second of the two shot series tended to be much sharper than the first. Which leads me to believe D5100shooter has a point about introduced shake. I should spend a little time getting to know my MC-36. I've had it now for nearly 2 weeks and have only skimmed thru the manual.
 

grandpaw

Senior Member
It may be as simple as having too slow a shutter speed, you point out. I was using a monopod with my 70-300 at 300mm and many of the soft photos were at 1/125 sec w/o VR on. So even the slightest jarring could account for the softness. But there were times I shot at 1/250 sec and the second of the two shot series tended to be much sharper than the first. Which leads me to believe D5100shooter has a point about introduced shake. I should spend a little time getting to know my MC-36. I've had it now for nearly 2 weeks and have only skimmed thru the manual.

I will give you my thoughts on this. First of all the only time I turn my VR off is when it is on a tripod and the camera is stable and not moving. A mono pod is steadier than being handheld but it is still not solid and is subject to movement. As far as using the remote goes it will be useless unless your camera IS ON A TRIPOD. If the camera is subject to movement using a remote will not do you any good. If you use good shooting technique with the VR turned on and a proper shutter speed you should not have any movement problems. With the cameras you own if your hands are not steady or your shooting technique is not good you should be able to bump the ISO up enough to get the shutter speed that you will need. The first thing I would consider doing is taking advantage of the VR that you paid extra money for. I have found that the VR is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE if you actually have it turned on and use it. Second, think about your shooting technique and how you are holding the camera. Next use the proper shutter speed for the focal length you are shooting. As a rule of thumb your shutter speed should be one to one and one half times the focal length you are shooting. Example, 300mm should have a shutter speed somewhere between 1/300 sec to 1/450sec if you are shooting handheld. The longer the focal length the higher the shutter speed you will need. In my humble opinion if mirror movement is affecting your shot, then you are shooting way too slow.

I do have steady hands but I have a photo taken with my Sigma 17-50 shot at night, handheld at one full second that is sharp. I also have a shot with my 70-200VR using a 2x teleconverter shot at 1/8 second handheld that is sharp. I normally would not shoot at these speeds but I was doing it just to prove to a friend of mine that it is possible. Both of these were handheld single shots only using stabilization on each of the lenses and shot with normal settings on the camera. I normally would not shoot this slow but was doing it to make a point that if you hold the camera properly and take advantage of the stabilization they offer you can accomplish a lot. If mirror slap was that big of a factor it should have really messed up these two shots and it didn't.

Again the is my opinion taken from actual years of shooting. Others will probably give you other opinions so consider them all and see what works best for you. The above opinions were derived from years of hands on experience. I know this was a little long but I just wanted to give you my thoughts on the subject. Jeff
 
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Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
I'd like to add one thing to what already has been said. When using a tripod with a slow shutter speed, I always use the mirror up setting. I think the mirror slap is the thing that causes the most blur in a picture. Maybe this is why when shooting in bursts the second shot is sharper. It could happen that after the first initial mirror slap there is some kind of a neutral moment at which the second shot would be taken. Just maybe, but I've heard of a few people that always shoot bursts just to make sure and they do tell that it's not always the first shot that is the sharpest.

Since digital film is free, maybe this is a good way to go.
 

grandpaw

Senior Member
I do not claim to have all the answers and I am certainly open to other people's opinions, but consider this..... If mirror slap causes that much movement, then why didn't it mess up the two shots that I took. I have many shots that I have taken at 1/5 and 1/2 sec handheld that are nice and sharp. It has been said that the second shot is sharper due to the fact that the mirror has already moved for the first shot and is still for the second shot. This could be true but consider the fact that on the first shot you were moving your finger to press the shutter and on the second one your hand wasn't moving to cause the camera to move also. If your shooting technique is good there is virtually no camera movement. I believe that the movement of your hand affects the first shot more than the mirror does. It is kinda like shooting a gun, if you pull the trigger or gently squeeze to trigger when you shoot makes a BIG BIG difference in if you hit the bulls eye or just hit the target and this comes right back to how good your technique is. The longer the focal length the more the movement will affect the results. The original poster was talking about shooting at 300mm and using a mono pod and if I was a betting person I would say that you pressing the shutter incorrectly will cause much more problems than the mirror slap ever will. Jeff
 
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grandpaw

Senior Member
I would like to say that common sense tells me that any movement, even the mirror, can make a difference. What I am saying is that compared to the other things that I have mentioned that the mirror slap would be at the very bottom of the list of things that actually affect the picture's sharpness that I would be concerned with in trying to get a great picture. Jeff
 

Dave_W

The Dude
Some really great ideas here, thanks all. I am a little reluctant to leave the VR on when I'm shooting on the monopod for fear I'll be introducing yet another source of camera shake but I should do the test just to make sure. As for mirror slap, I'm not so sure the mirror stays up between the two shots, does it? It certainly doesn't sound like it does but I guess I don't know for certain. The action of pressing the shutter release button is something that I would like to work on. Shooting with my D7000 there was never a difference between first and second shot but the D800 makes you evaluate all aspects of your shooting habits. I never noticed an issue like this before but I've never shot a camera with such resolution as the D800 before, either. But ohhh, when you do get a real sharp image at 36MP it's amazing thing...
 

Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
Some really great ideas here, thanks all. I am a little reluctant to leave the VR on when I'm shooting on the monopod for fear I'll be introducing yet another source of camera shake but I should do the test just to make sure. As for mirror slap, I'm not so sure the mirror stays up between the two shots, does it? It certainly doesn't sound like it does but I guess I don't know for certain. The action of pressing the shutter release button is something that I would like to work on. Shooting with my D7000 there was never a difference between first and second shot but the D800 makes you evaluate all aspects of your shooting habits. I never noticed an issue like this before but I've never shot a camera with such resolution as the D800 before, either. But ohhh, when you do get a real sharp image at 36MP it's amazing thing...

Just as an experiment, try the same shot with normal and then one with the Quiet mode. Even around 1/125. Have a look and you might be surprised at the mirror effect.
 

grandpaw

Senior Member
Marcel, I will try what you suggested as soon as I get the chance but I found my one second handheld shot so I could post it for everyone to see. Remember that this shot was NOT taken as a shot I was going to keep, it was only to show the guy I was shooting with that a sharp shot can be made handheld at a very slow shutter speed. With having steady hands and holding the camera properly you CAN get a sharp shot. This was taken handheld with a single press of the shutter. I would like to add that this picture was cut down to 800x530 and the size of the file is less that 300k so it could be posted on another site but have a look at it anyway. Jeff

The EXIF data is attached if you want to look at. This was taken handheld with a Nikon D7000 and a Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 EX DC OS HSM Zoom Lens.


_DSC1951.jpg
 
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eurotrash

Senior Member
I've experience this as well, though, not to the length that a photo becomes completely useless. It's still sharp, but noticeably LESS sharp..

I've noticed that while on my tripod, say, taking a shot of a sunrise or something, the camera will move slightly when the shutter clicks. I usually get sharper shots by turning VR off, but I have noticed this phenomenon as well with non-vr lenses. Weirdly, handheld I don't have issues unless obviously, my shutter speed is too slow for me to handhold effectively.

I'm not exactly sure why, even with faster shutter speeds, the camera seems to move ever so slightly. Perhaps my tripod is not stable enough to hold the camera in place? It IS a cheaper one. Perhaps it's just the way the D5100 works, being a lower end model the components might be less "solid" inside the body, leading to a bit more shake when the mirror drops? Maybe I'll try to take a video of this happening so that others can see the effects, but without a tripod for my phone, i wonder how effective that would be :D
 
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