The Value of a photo

ohkphoto

ohkphoto

Snow White
I'm posting this link because I think it's an excellent "rant" and an educational insight into copyright whether you're a professional photographer or not. Those of you who are not in the "business", please do not take this lightly. Every time a photographer (amateur, professional, otherwise, etc.) gives away his/her copyright, the whole industry is weakened. Someday you may regret not keeping the rights to photos you made.

What's a Picture Worth
 
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AxeMan - Rick S.

Senior Member
OK, so we don't give it away. Let me put this question out to all you people who do this for a living, or for other income. How much should I charge? What is a fair price for myself but would be also fair to the other party?

Let's start at a level that I would say a lot of us here on this site are at. We have a good eye for photo's and we have a mid range camera that we can produce appealing photo's with. We have some of our photo's posted on a Web site or someone has seen some of our work another way. Now we are asked "Can I get a copy of that photo? or I really like that photo, can I have a copy of it? I'll pay you for it."

What do we charge? I can't charge by the hour, because I haven't hit the big league yet, and it was a random shot I took while out shooting one day. We don't get that many requests for this so we don't print our own photo's, so buying a higher end printer at this point in time to lower our cost is appealing, but requests are so low it will not offset the cost. So all our prints are sent out to be printed.

So what percent of a mark up would we use above our cost that would be fair to both parties?

The second question is using the same scenario, what we charge a company or an advertising company if we were approached for the use of a copyright to one of our files? What would we charge now, I have no real cost, where do I start now? How do I mark up?

I understand that the link provided mainly deals with the second question, but on the other hand, the first question is something I am running into with some of my photo's and people wanting them or offering to buy them.

I don't want to "Give it away"
 
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ohkphoto

ohkphoto

Snow White
Rick, there's nothing wrong with "giving" away a photo. i.e. print. I do it all the time. When I shoot a session or event, I post a download link on the site. A "personal use" license comes up, so they understand that the photo is for personal use. Prints have to be ordered through me because the copyright symbol is on there . . . fortunately, Walmart and Walgreen do honor that.

With regard to what to charge for a commercial license, here's an example as a starting point: Click on this image and pretend you're going to buy a license. Click on the download tab. There are several options, but for a year's use of this image, Paid advertising on a website for a company with a national market: $3090. You can play around with the different options and see immediately how the price changes. (Photoshelter uses "fotoquote" to help photographers set up pricing), Even when I do a wedding, every one of the photos is watermarked and I make it clear that they only get a personal license for the photos.

I've had 2 copyright issues in the last month. I'll write about them later. The rant refers a lot to the stock agencies that have popped up (including Getty Images).

The bottom line is you have to honor and value your work enough to stand up for it.
 
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AxeMan - Rick S.

Senior Member
Thanks Helene, Like I said I know the link is geared more to a commercial license. I thought perhaps an answer could have been given or should I say an answer could be applied towards single print requests and pricing mark up's. It's all good, things like this are good to know, maybe someday down the road.....

I think we had a thread on print pricing, I'm going to have to look that one up. When someone comes up to me and says "I'll pay you" it's hard at this point to say "nah, you can have it for free"

As for Wal-Mart, I have first hand experience them. I have a standing copyright release form with Wal-Mart stating that I'm the copyright holder. Not because of any watermarks, but because of the quality of the images according to Wal-mart look like they were taken by a professional. Kind of makes my head swell a little.:D

Thanks for your reply
 
ohkphoto

ohkphoto

Snow White
I think we had a thread on print pricing, I'm going to have to look that one up. When someone comes up to me and says "I'll pay you" it's hard at this point to say "nah, you can have it for free"
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I charge $2.50 for one standard print ( 4X6) I print them myself on an Epson 4880 and use the thick Ilford smooth pearl paper. Each print is in an archival sleeve when delivered. As a matter of fact I just finished a $150 job for prints and enlargements.

This should give you a starting point.
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
Here is a link to one of the most valuable photography for $$$ links you will ever find:
NPPA Cost of Doing Business Calculator

And here is the industry "Bible", written about copyright retention and general photography business:
Best Business Practices for Photographers

Only you can decide how much a photo is worth. You need to take in consideration the depreciation value of your camera (every time you press the shutter button, your camera is that much closer to needing replaced), your overhead (which probably isn't much at this point) and many other factors. That book is excellent, and I would say required reading for anyone even considering selling their photography on any level. I know it really helped me get a grasp on photo rights and just how important they really are. Even if you don't sell your photos now.

I am still in the early stages of my business, and it's tough. I work my ass off. I eat, sleep, and breathe photography. But it's much more than that now because it's also a portion of my income. One day I will leave the "normal" job behind. I started taking all of this seriously January 1, 2011...which was almost 10 months ago. I've already transitioned to a part-time job so that I have more time to dedicate to my photography work. But I still have a long way to go, because it takes time to build.

Good luck, man!
 
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fotojack

Senior Member
Excellent article, Helene, and it makes perfect sense. I also understand Rick's question. I sell motorcycle racer shots to interested racers for $20. I don't get a ton of requests, but i do get a reasonable amount. I usually end up emailing the shots to them, or putting them on a CD for them. I always tell them that I retain the complete rights to the photos. Never had a problem.......yet. All shots I sell are copyrighted and watermarked, plus I put my name and date in the EXIF...........just in case.

I'm not in this game for the money. I truely love photography and the pleasure it brings me. If someone wants to buy any of my shots, it pleases me very much, but it's not the be all and end all of why I do this. Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the subject.
 
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theregsy

Senior Member
Very interesting topic, as ever :)
I sell A4 prints for £10 and bigger for £20 (I get them done through Snapmad and delivered to the recipient) basically I keep the change from the printing costs, I do have a decent printer and some great Ilford pearl and Fuji pearl paper that I will use on occasion, for the same price, up to A4 anyway. Its a difficult market to get into and I do sometimes find it hard to charge a mate for a print, so I tend to e-mail them and let them get them printed. My website states clearly that photos are downloadable for personal use only and not for commercial. However I haven't had any kind of copyright issue, as yet, maybe my photos just aren't good enough! LOL
Thanks all for the links and info, I see some reading ahead of me :(
 
Johnathan Aulabaugh

Johnathan Aulabaugh

Senior Member
Great thread, some very neat links as well. With the exception of one website I always have my images watermarked and have been trying to keep up with the exif data although I am lacking there. As for cost of prints, everything varies in my world. I have done quite a few modeling shoots, weddings, and events. often times the modeling shoots are on a basic time for time trade, giving only retouched images watermarked for web use and a non commercial print release. I keep telling myself I will not shoot another wedding or event but seem to get sucked in at times.

On the flip side of this though, I am always on the go and always have a camera in my hands traveling and exploring. Trying to figure prices for prints in such a situation has always been tricky for me. I was told back when I started to figure what an image cost me to make and what I felt was reasonable to profit and charge that. Unfortunately that does not always work out the way you would like and standard pricing for art is impossible. I have been trying to modify a system that some photographers in west yellowstone and jackson hole wyo are using.
 
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Carolina Photo Guy

Senior Member
It is fascinating to me that no one has brought up the REAL market in this discussion.

Is this a BUYERS market or a SELLERS market?

Beats the hell outa me! But if you can't identify the market conditions, then you can't fairly price your work.

BWTHDIK. :p
 
Johnathan Aulabaugh

Johnathan Aulabaugh

Senior Member
Carolina Photo Guy said:
It is fascinating to me that no one has brought up the REAL market in this discussion.

Is this a BUYERS market or a SELLERS market?

Beats the hell outa me! But if you can't identify the market conditions, then you can't fairly price your work.

BWTHDIK. :p
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That could go both ways though as many times a buyers market reflects a sellers NEED to sell vs a sellers market where demand on an item is high.
Now add in another factor here and that is that art (from a market standpoint) is a desired thing and not a necessity.
And that the art of photography has always been more about the artist than the buyer
Different genres of photography also play a key in this as portrait photographers can not charge the same as landscape photographers, nor even on the same basis. Apples and oranges
IDK i have seen amazing wedding photographers for $2-3000 and I have seen the craigslist photographers for as low as 200. (shivers at the thought)
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
Carolina Photo Guy said:
Is this a BUYERS market or a SELLERS market?
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There are forces at work in the marketplace, certainly. If you believe everything you read in the funny papers and all the doom and gloom prophecy stuff that's out there from Average Joe studio owner. Most of it comes from old school ex-film guys who refuse to adapt to new ways of doing business, and are slowly dying. Stock agencies and websites have definitely taken a big chunk of the pie from the commercial segment.

I believe that when faced with adversity in business, you have to create your own market. If the trend is downward, you have a choice. You can either follow it into the abyss or you can adapt.
 
Johnathan Aulabaugh

Johnathan Aulabaugh

Senior Member
Anthony Hereld said:
There are forces at work in the marketplace, certainly. If you believe everything you read in the funny papers and all the doom and gloom prophecy stuff that's out there from Average Joe studio owner. Most of it comes from old school ex-film guys who refuse to adapt to new ways of doing business, and are slowly dying. Stock agencies and websites have definitely taken a big chunk of the pie from the commercial segment.

I believe that when faced with adversity in business, you have to create your own market. If the trend is downward, you have a choice. You can either follow it into the abyss or you can adapt.
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While I agree with most of what you have said. Regardless of film or digital, I have seen 2 trends recently that really hurt the business IMO.
1. The worst IMO, photographers selling their work/time for way to cheap. Pro's dropping prices to the point they almost cant make a buck because of the craigslist $50 walmart shoot.
2. photographers looking at it from the "If I am cheaper, I will get more shoots" mentality. And while that is in many ways true, it does in fact circle around to the above. I have seen this in almost every aspect of business in the last 7 years, from construction to retail. the only thing I have not noticed it in is the medical field (excluding medical supplies).

Photography has become so incredibly competitive that the artist can't make a buck without stepping on someone else's toes, which from an art standpoint is extremely sad. In another profession, I actually got together with several other companies and discussed our pricing structure with them so we were all on the same page. it made us all competitive and able to make money. As a result our company grew significantly. Be nice if there was a way to do something similar for photographers based on genre and location.

And before I get flamed for that statement, I do realize there is not a chance in hell of that happening nor a way of converting without stepping on peoples toes among a laundry list of other things that are semi wrong about that statement lol.
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
"The market" has been dictated by the wrong people. By and large, buyers have set the price instead of photographers. This is a practice that began in the editorial markets and has crept its way into stock photography on the internet and finally into the local markets. Photographers have no one to blame but themselves.

You're absolutely right. Most photographers look at this as a product industry and try to compete on price. If you subscribe to that mindset, you're not going to be a professional photographer for very long. Your kids will go hungry because we can not compete on price against the internet and big box stores. Potential customers who shop price alone are not the target audience for professional photography.

Photographers who succeed realize that this is a service business. We provide something that Sears, Wal Mart, and microstock sites can't provide: customization. Moms with small children come to me for their baby photos because I do not have 3 outfit change restrictions. I do not have a time limit like the big box stores. Most of my mom clients come back again on the same day or schedule another appointment if their baby is fussy, and I don't charge them extra. I am flexible and work with everyone on an individual basis.

Competition is a good thing. I argue that if someone undercuts my prices, more power to them. They will eventually discount themselves right out of business. They will have to continually lower their prices in order to maintain their reputation as the cheap photographer. Personally, I would much rather target the Abercrombie & Fitch clientele than the Dollar Store folks. I have a family to feed.
 
Johnathan Aulabaugh

Johnathan Aulabaugh

Senior Member
Anthony Hereld said:
"The market" has been dictated by the wrong people. By and large, buyers have set the price instead of photographers. This is a practice that began in the editorial markets and has crept its way into stock photography on the internet and finally into the local markets. Photographers have no one to blame but themselves.

You're absolutely right. Most photographers look at this as a product industry and try to compete on price. If you subscribe to that mindset, you're not going to be a professional photographer for very long. Your kids will go hungry because we can not compete on price against the internet and big box stores. Potential customers who shop price alone are not the target audience for professional photography.

Photographers who succeed realize that this is a service business. We provide something that Sears, Wal Mart, and microstock sites can't provide: customization. Moms with small children come to me for their baby photos because I do not have 3 outfit change restrictions. I do not have a time limit like the big box stores. Most of my mom clients come back again on the same day or schedule another appointment if their baby is fussy, and I don't charge them extra. I am flexible and work with everyone on an individual basis.

Competition is a good thing. I argue that if someone undercuts my prices, more power to them. They will eventually discount themselves right out of business. They will have to continually lower their prices in order to maintain their reputation as the cheap photographer. Personally, I would much rather target the Abercrombie & Fitch clientele than the Dollar Store folks. I have a family to feed.
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Marketing yourself to the higher end of the spectrum is a good thing with out a doubt, But the days of the high dollar sitting fee are nearly gone. A few photographers still charge good money for sitting fees. I notice your price structure is designed to have a little appeal for everyone, which is a good thing.
One of the most popular studios north of Sacramento in California has a great pricing system and they are cleaning up in the north state. Really love their print costs :) but they get it
We Shoot Ya Photography  |  Voted Best Photography Studio in Tehama County Three Years Running!
As far as competition goes, discount dan is still going to do well specially in this economy. You yourself have a dollar saver deal in your arsenal. What I am trying to say is you should not have to even with walmart and craigslist wedding specials, but with the market in it's current state you almost have no choice.
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
Johnathan Aulabaugh said:
I notice your price structure is designed to have a little appeal for everyone, which is a good thing...You yourself have a dollar saver deal in your arsenal. What I am trying to say is you should not have to even with walmart and craigslist wedding specials, but with the market in it's current state you almost have no choice.
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Thank you for reminding me about my pricing structure...I've been meaning to update that all week.

I think you must have the dollar saver deal in your pricing structure. It's the lead-in, the bait. Most pricing structures are designed to lead people towards the middle ground, because that's where the most profit is made. Just about any bronze/silver/gold type structure is set up that way, and few people want to get the cheapest or most expensive package.
 
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