I know even the cheap DSLRs have lossy raw of very high quality (often called "visually lossless"). However, I believe that a raw file should be lossless, so as I am looking for a DSLR camera, I need to know which ones support either a truly lossless compression based raw file, or uncompressed raw raw file, and not just the lossy raw files. What is the cheapest Nikon camera that supports taking pictures as actual lossless raw files or uncompressed raw files?
Which Nikon DSLRs have lossless raw or uncompressed raw?
- Thread starter Ben321
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The D5500 and D3300 do not. All the other current models say they do have an option for lossless compression of NEF. Only the D810 also offers an uncompressed option.
You can of course check the manuals.
Nikon Product Manuals available for download | Nikon Knowledgebase
You can of course check the manuals.
Nikon Product Manuals available for download | Nikon Knowledgebase
What about among the Dxx models (such as D50, D70, D80)? Which of those support lossless compression and/or uncompressed raw, instead of being limited to only using lossy raw?
As for manuals, that's quite a few manuals to check. I was hoping there would be some comprehensive list somewhere which would show which forms of raw were supported by each model of Nikon DSLR.
Nope, not those. The D300 does. But the manuals are all there, check for yourself. They are searchable PDF files, only takes a second to search for "lossless". It's your question, I'd suppose you're interested enough to actually look. I like to trust stuff I can see for myself. 
Frankly, I don't notice that the lossy compression is any issue for my raw files. Pretty much is the smallest of my problems.
Frankly, I don't notice that the lossy compression is any issue for my raw files. Pretty much is the smallest of my problems.
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Both my D700 and D800E have the ability to go uncompressed! But the D7100 doesn't!
To check, go to shooting menu to Raw recording and right click then right click again! There I have the options of uncompressed, compressed, and lossless compression!
I shoot uncompressed on my D700, because my editor seems to have less trouble with loading them uncompressed from that model! I haven't checked my D800E to see if I am still uncompressed on it too, due to that issue of loading the files in my editor.
To check, go to shooting menu to Raw recording and right click then right click again! There I have the options of uncompressed, compressed, and lossless compression!
I shoot uncompressed on my D700, because my editor seems to have less trouble with loading them uncompressed from that model! I haven't checked my D800E to see if I am still uncompressed on it too, due to that issue of loading the files in my editor.
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Horoscope Fish
Senior Member
Fred Kingston
Senior Member
The D200 has an uncompressed mode... and is probably, for all intents and purposes, the cheapest Dx camera at this point... although, I'd guess it's "other" features would create more of an issue than any difference you'll lose in compression...
Thanks to all you guys for the info. Lets narrow the question a little bit more though. Not among the Dx, or Dxxx, or Dxxxx cameras, but specifically among the Dxx cameras (such as the D70), which of them supports lossless compressed and/or uncompressed raw files, rather than being limited to only lossy compressed raws? I've heard that the D70 itself only supports lossy, but that the D50 also supports lossless and/or uncompressed raw, but I've never seen any official statement from Nikon if this claim is true. However, if somebody else can backup these claims, it would validate them for me. Does anybody else here know what the raw capabilities are among the various Dxx Nikon DSLR cameras?
I'm particularly interested in the Dxx models, as I've seen a number of them on ebay for around only $100 to $200 dollars (very cheap for Nikon DSLR cameras), and even better yet, a few of those Dxx models on ebay have been modified by the original owner for infrared or "full spectrum" use. This is a very attractive idea for me because infrared use would allow viewing sources of near-IR light (such as TV remotes, IR lasers such as from a CD player, and other scientific uses), and I happen to have a strong hobby/interest in science (even more than photography, and for me, a camera is simply a scientific tool in my toolbox). Because of my intent for it to be used for scientific measurements, lossy compression is absolutely useless for me, even if it is "visually lossless" (maybe good for art photography, but useless for scientific photography). Scientific measurements are no good if the data has been tampered with, even if only slightly. This is why I'm researching specifically the Dxx models (several on ebay have been modified for IR or "full spectrum" use, which is great for certain scientific measurements), to see which of them have lossless and/or uncompressed raw file formats available (which means unaltered data for scientific measurements).
I'm particularly interested in the Dxx models, as I've seen a number of them on ebay for around only $100 to $200 dollars (very cheap for Nikon DSLR cameras), and even better yet, a few of those Dxx models on ebay have been modified by the original owner for infrared or "full spectrum" use. This is a very attractive idea for me because infrared use would allow viewing sources of near-IR light (such as TV remotes, IR lasers such as from a CD player, and other scientific uses), and I happen to have a strong hobby/interest in science (even more than photography, and for me, a camera is simply a scientific tool in my toolbox). Because of my intent for it to be used for scientific measurements, lossy compression is absolutely useless for me, even if it is "visually lossless" (maybe good for art photography, but useless for scientific photography). Scientific measurements are no good if the data has been tampered with, even if only slightly. This is why I'm researching specifically the Dxx models (several on ebay have been modified for IR or "full spectrum" use, which is great for certain scientific measurements), to see which of them have lossless and/or uncompressed raw file formats available (which means unaltered data for scientific measurements).
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If you actually want to know, you could simply check the D50 manual, page 32. These are the D50 menu options:
If you actually want to know, you could simply check the D50 manual, page 32. These are the D50 menu options:
Interesting. It appears there is not any mention of whether the raw saved in "NEF (RAW)" mode or the raw saved in "NEF+JPEG Basic" mode is in fact lossy or lessless compressed, or if it is uncompressed.
Though I could have sworn that I'd seen somebody mention elsewhere on a forum on the internet, that the D50 is known to support lossless compressed NEF files. Maybe there's another menu in the camera that selects the compression mode for NEF raw images?
Lossless compression was introduced with D300 and D3. Prior to that only lossy compressed and (some higher-end models) uncompressed NEF was available.
TIER 1
D70, D70s, D40, D50, D60, D40X, D80, D90: only lossy compressed NEF available
(Nikon funnily calls the lossy format visually lossless, which has caused enormous confusion. Lossy is lossy.)
TIER 2 (dead by now)
D1H, D1X, D100, D2H, D2X, D200: either uncompressed or lossy compressed, user selectable
TIER 3
D300, D300s, D3, D3X, D3s, D700, D800, ... either uncompressed or lossy compressed or lossless compressed formats, user selectable
I don't know which formats are available in D6xx, D3xxx, D5xxx and D7xxx series, but that info is most likely available in the Nikon site just like it is for these older models. If I make a guess I'd say D7xxxx and D6xx are Tier 3 and D3xxx and D5xxx are Tier 1.
TIER 1
D70, D70s, D40, D50, D60, D40X, D80, D90: only lossy compressed NEF available
(Nikon funnily calls the lossy format visually lossless, which has caused enormous confusion. Lossy is lossy.)
TIER 2 (dead by now)
D1H, D1X, D100, D2H, D2X, D200: either uncompressed or lossy compressed, user selectable
TIER 3
D300, D300s, D3, D3X, D3s, D700, D800, ... either uncompressed or lossy compressed or lossless compressed formats, user selectable
I don't know which formats are available in D6xx, D3xxx, D5xxx and D7xxx series, but that info is most likely available in the Nikon site just like it is for these older models. If I make a guess I'd say D7xxxx and D6xx are Tier 3 and D3xxx and D5xxx are Tier 1.
As I said, their choice of words has caused a lot of confusion.
Lossless compressed NEF is lossless, not just "visually lossless", which is a weasel word. Lossless means the compression is reversible, like a ZIP file in Windows, with no loss/change/mutation to the data. The data is the same (identical bit by bit) with the uncompressed file once the data has been uncompressed ('unzipped') by a raw developer software.
Compressed NEF is lossy, but Nikon chose to call it visually lossless which is like calling a cheap wedding ring "zirconium diamond". Well, zirconium just isn't diamond. This file format loses information irreversibly and permanently, and will never again be identical to the original uncompressed data. By Nikon's standard you may or may not be able to see the difference, depending on how capable you are visually.
If the "visually lossless" difference cannot be detected and seen, what real difference does it make?
See this comparison for an example
Jeffrey Friedl's Blog » A Qualitative Analysis of NEF Compression
The part I thought was clever was how he got the camera to produce both uncompressed and compressed images from the same one image?
There is a comment lower on the page that explains, using the Overlay Two Images (one totally blank), D200 manual page 132.
See this comparison for an example
Jeffrey Friedl's Blog » A Qualitative Analysis of NEF Compression
The part I thought was clever was how he got the camera to produce both uncompressed and compressed images from the same one image?
There is a comment lower on the page that explains, using the Overlay Two Images (one totally blank), D200 manual page 132.
Yes, I saw that comparison 9 years ago. Perhaps a new one is in order with current 14-bit sensors?
Anyhow, your question in the first line is a little bit on a slippery slope. Once we start to make compromises on raw data, why not on lenses too? As long as one person blogging on the net cannot see a visual difference between a $500 lens and a $2500 lens, let's stick to the cheaper. And then the next cheaper model down from that. And cameras too? And tripods? There's always something that's only a little bit worse than the next better option... ad infinitum. And ultimately we'll end up with Brownies.
And before you ask, yes, I still sometimes shoot with my D1H. Last time was today. Oz
You think we don't? DxO? Rating a lens lower because it was tested on a lower sensor resolution? How is that even about the lens?
If we can't see it, then why not? At least for our own use? Saves $2000.
I see easy differences in some lenses, but Nikons lossy NEF compression has to be about my very least problem, not even on the list.
Thanks for the info. This is exactly what I was looking for.
There's just one feature I see in the manual http://cdn-10.nikon-cdn.com/pdf/manuals/dslr/D200_en.pdf that makes me not want to buy the D200. That is the fact that noise reduction can never be completely disabled if you are shooting at over ISO 800. Even when you have the "off" setting selected in the noise reduction menu, which kind of violates the dictionary definition of the word "off". Unless there's some firmware hack you can do, it appears that above ISO 800 there is no way to disable noise reduction. Why do you suppose they did this? Are they trying to push people to purchase more expensive models of their cameras, by intentionally including undesirable "features" in cheaper models? What is the cheapest Nikon DSLR that has both an uncompressed raw mode, and also allows you to truly turn off all noise reduction?