D300 pop up flash with D glass

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hrstrat57

Senior Member
Quick question.

I rarely do flash photography, something I plan I doing a lot more of going forward and learning about.

I have been using the handy pop up flash on my D300 a bit and have come across a bit of a quirk. When using flash with my D lenses at times the pics have a orange or yellowish tone to them. Nothing fancy here just shooting P mode and adjusting the flash power as needed with the button on the side of the prism to get good coverage. Pics with the DX G kit lenses are perfectly exposed. I have switched the white balance from auto to flash to no avail. The pics are useable just have a weird tint to the JPEGS. Shooting RAW would likely solve the problem as I could correct it.....again nothing fancy here just family snapshots for which JPEGS are convenient.

Thoughts?
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
hrstrat57 said:
Quick question.

I rarely do flash photography, something I plan I doing a lot more of going forward and learning about.

I have been using the handy pop up flash on my D300 a bit and have come across a bit of a quirk. When using flash with my D lenses at times the pics have a orange or yellowish tone to them. Nothing fancy here just shooting P mode and adjusting the flash power as needed with the button on the side of the prism to get good coverage. Pics with the DX G kit lenses are perfectly exposed. I have switched the white balance from auto to flash to no avail. The pics are useable just have a weird tint to the JPEGS. Shooting RAW would likely solve the problem as I could correct it.....again nothing fancy here just family snapshots for which JPEGS are convenient.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I cannot account for any color difference in the lenses, I would expect them to be the same. Instead, I would imagine the indoor situation just was different, and I suspect the real problem is Auto ISO, which is a known effect.

There are differences in various models and features, but I am speaking of the internal flash.

Auto ISO in a dim place where we need flash will increase high enough (if it can) so that flash is not needed. Then the (internal) flash (which is TTL BL mode) becomes weaker fill flash for the more properly exposed ambient.

However, the ambient indoors is probably incandescent lights, which are are in fact rather orange. High ISO and a better ambient exposure shows that orange off well. Normally we would use Incandescent white balance then, to remove the orange, but the flash is more blue. Incandescent white balance will make the flash look quite blue, like incandescent is quite orange. Mixing light source colors that way is rather difficult to do, the mix would be tough in Raw too.

So, to mix less, in this previous orange place, try a one time test turning Auto ISO off, and set it low, ISO 200 or 400. This keeps the orange out, too dim to register so much. The internal flash is relatively weak, but I bet you like the indoor color better (if using flash WB, and incandescent ambient is less exposed)... and will like the lower ISO too.


There are other quirks of the Auto ISO system which can easily confuse what we see, a few more words need to be said.

If you used a hot shoe flash, on the D300, the Auto ISO would stay at Minimum (probably 200) with flash, because, well, because you are using flash instead. Nikon models of D300 and older did that - kept Auto ISO at Minimum when hot shoe flash was used. This was a good thing. Actually, Auto ISO could increase, but only when it was judged that the flash power level would be otherwise insufficient for the flash exposure. But not the internal flash, which is less powerful, and which allows high ISO at all times.

However, the following D300S was the first of a new Auto ISO system (the newer camera models), when Auto ISO would go very high indoors, without regard to if flash was used or not, for both internal or external flash. So users with newer camera models will see this a little different. They probably always want to turn Auto ISO off with flash indoors.
 
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hrstrat57

Senior Member
Hey Wayne thanks for taking all that time to do a detailed write up. I will be using a lot of your stuff in the forums as I delve more into using nikon commander with external and off camera lighting.

for clarity I never use auto ISO all of the snaps I describe were ISO 200 or 320 I believe. I flipped from auto WB to flash WB with no effect. Really expected the same problem with the kit lenses but a few snaps tonight were perfect.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
hrstrat57 said:
for clarity I never use auto ISO all of the snaps I describe were ISO 200 or 320 I believe. I flipped from auto WB to flash WB with no effect.
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OK, but Auto ISO and White Balance are very different things of course. :)

Flash color can vary slightly with flash power level (camera flash is slightly more red at full power), but the incandescent orange is much bigger effect, relatively huge. The orange can vary according to how bright the incandescent exposure is. So wide aperture will have a similar effect of seeing the orange better. And of course, indoor lights vary quite a bit in types, they are not all the same (situations vary).

But for example, the same picture attempt without the flash will show the effect of the room lights - hopefully near a totally black picture with the flash off, esp if you can keep the same shutter speed, but if incandescents, what you see should be orange (if Flash WB) and should show the point.

You could test the color of just the lens with a flash picture in a very dark black room, no room lights to affect anything then. And I doubt you think the lens is orange outdoors in sunshine.


EDIT: I realize now that I misspoke, sorry. It is getting a bit confusing. :)

The D300 (and older DSLR) do NOT increase Auto ISO at all if flash is used. Not external flash or internal flash. ISO stays at Minimum if flash is used (any flash that the camera can recognize is present). Auto ISO can increase only if the flash power might be insufficient.

Starting with the D300S (and newer), these do increase Auto ISO according to the ambient level, regardless if flash is used, either external or internal. Indoor flash is always working into high ISO (you can turn Auto ISO off).

A handful of the newest models (D800, D600, and D7100) only increase Auto ISO by two stops (usually to ISO 400, but two stops above Minimum) if an external flash is used. These models can still fully increase Auto ISO to Maximum if the internal flash is used.
 
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FastGlass

Senior Member
WayneF, I know that Nikon's CLS works but gathering info from the camera, lens and flash. By using a D lens, would that have an effect on what the issue is because I don't think D lens's communicate like G lens's do. Could be wrong.
 
Horoscope Fish

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
FastGlass said:
WayneF, I know that Nikon's CLS works but gathering info from the camera, lens and flash. By using a D lens, would that have an effect on what the issue is because I don't think D lens's communicate like G lens's do. Could be wrong.
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Not sure it matters in this case but... Do these "D" lenses you're having the issue with, are they CPU or non-CPU lenses?

....
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
FastGlass said:
WayneF, I know that Nikon's CLS works but gathering info from the camera, lens and flash. By using a D lens, would that have an effect on what the issue is because I don't think D lens's communicate like G lens's do. Could be wrong.
Click to expand...


I don't think if a D or G lens is an issue here, esp not about color. Every Nikon lens introduced since 1992 is a D lens (with the chip in them, i.e., a CPU lens). Those that "say" D just don't have anything else to say. Those that don't say D just have more to say, newer features like a G lens, etc. A G lens has no external aperture setting ring, aperture can only be adjusted from the camera dial (and a G lens is also a D lens. but I think none say D and G). The D chip reports lens info, like zoom and model and max aperture, and specifically focus Distance, and all since 1992 do this.

FWIW, the D chip reports barrel rotation for focus distance, and zoom lenses can have trouble reporting distance, it can be wrong at many focal lengths (high dollar lenses might fare a little better). For one example, the 16-85mm zoom, focused at 3 meters (10 feet), it reports 2 meters at 16mm, and reports 3.6 meters at 85mm, when both are focused at a measured 3 meters.
It seems a questionable feature, but nevertheless it can influence TTL BL direct flash exposure (example limits a 3 meter distance to only 2 meter flash power at 16mm).

But all Nikon lenses since 1992 are D lenses. It can be, and is, assumed.
 
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dslater

Senior Member
Horoscope Fish said:
Not sure it matters in this case but... Do these "D" lenses you're having the issue with, are they CPU or non-CPU lenses?

....
Click to expand...

All "D" lenses have a CPU as they are all AF-D lenses. The "D" designation was introduced for AF lenses only and refers to the fact that the lens transmits the focus distance to the camera to enable 3-D metering with supposedly improved flash exposure. In practice, it's usually almost impossible to tell the difference between a "D" lens the equivalent non-D lens.
 
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dslater

Senior Member
This really sounds to me like the ambient light in the room is overpowering the flash output. The orange to yellowish cast reflects the incandescent lighting white balance.
Did you check your shutter speed? If you're shutter speed is greater than 1/250, the flash goes into Auto FP High Speed Sync mode which drastically reduces the flash output.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
dslater said:
In practice, it's usually almost impossible to tell the difference between a "D" lens the equivalent non-D lens.
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Actually, it is quite easy to see bad effect to flash due to D lenses (speaking also of later lenses, G and AF-S, etc. which do the D thing too). The distance reported by the D lens (seen in the Exif) for zoom lenses is particularly bad. It only affects direct flash. When the lens error reports less distance than the actual flash distance, the system says "Wow, the level the TTL BL flash measured to use is too much power for this (incorrect) close distance, and so it cuts back on the flash power, imagining it protects against overexposure, but which causes underexposure then.

My 16-85mm Nikon lens at a measured 3 meters (10 feet) reports 2 meters at 16mm and 3.6 meters at 85mm. 3.6 is fine, greater than the flash measures, so it does not reduce the flash. But 16 mm reporting 2 meters does.

My 12-24mm Nikon lens at a measured 3 meters reports 2 meters at 12mm and reports infinity at 24mm. Infinity is no problem, but 2 meters cuts back on the flash power.

My 24-70mm Nikon lens at a measured 3 meters reports 2.5 meters at both 24 and 70mm. Cuts back on the flash power (a little).

My macro primes are reasonably correct. My 70-200 lens generally reports greater distance, so no problem. But no bets on most zooms.

This only affects TTL BL Direct flash. Not TTL mode, not bounce, etc. But the D lens system is a bit underwhelming. :)

There is more about this at Nikon TTL BL flash - D-lens distance data accuracy

Workarounds are:

To disable the D-lens distance check (because it often interferes with direct TTL BL flash):


  • Selecting TTL mode (as opposed to TTL BL mode) will disable the D-lens distance check. Some flashes have this menu.
  • Choosing Spot Metering will switch the TTL BL flash metering to be TTL mode. The flash system does not use Spot metering, and if the ambient is too dim to register much, Spot won't matter much to it either, but Spot metering does switch flash modes (Just don't forget to reset it when you go back into bright ambient.)
  • If your camera model has the FV Lock function, it does not use the D-lens distance data, so its use can ignore this problem too.
  • Tilting or rotating the Nikon flash head (for bounce) switches out D-lens distance support. The bounce path is assumed to be a different distance.
  • I also have a Yongnuo YN565EX flash, and the Nikon system also defaults to TTL BL with it, but it does not suffer this problem, it causes system to ignore D lens. Probably third party flashes do not report head tilt?
 
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dslater

Senior Member
WayneF said:
Actually, it is quite easy to see bad effect to flash due to D lenses (speaking also of later lenses, G and AF-S, etc. which do the D thing too). The distance reported by the D lens (seen in the Exif) for zoom lenses is particularly bad. It only affects direct flash. When the lens error reports less distance than the actual flash distance, the system says "Wow, the level the TTL BL flash measured to use is too much power for this (incorrect) close distance, and so it cuts back on the flash power, imagining it protects against overexposure, but which causes underexposure then.

My 16-85mm Nikon lens at a measured 3 meters (10 feet) reports 2 meters at 16mm and 3.6 meters at 85mm. 3.6 is fine, greater than the flash measures, so it does not reduce the flash. But 16 mm reporting 2 meters does.

My 12-24mm Nikon lens at a measured 3 meters reports 2 meters at 12mm and reports infinity at 24mm. Infinity is no problem, but 2 meters cuts back on the flash power.

My 24-70mm Nikon lens at a measured 3 meters reports 2.5 meters at both 24 and 70mm. Cuts back on the flash power (a little).

My macro primes are reasonably correct. My 70-200 lens generally reports greater distance, so no problem. But no bets on most zooms.

This only affects TTL BL Direct flash. Not TTL mode, not bounce, etc. But the D lens system is a bit underwhelming. :)

There is more about this at Nikon TTL BL flash - D-lens distance data accuracy

Workarounds are:

To disable the D-lens distance check (because it often interferes with direct TTL BL flash):


  • Selecting TTL mode (as opposed to TTL BL mode) will disable the D-lens distance check. Some flashes have this menu.
  • Choosing Spot Metering will switch the TTL BL flash metering to be TTL mode. The flash system does not use Spot metering, and if the ambient is too dim to register much, Spot won't matter much to it either, but Spot metering does switch flash modes (Just don't forget to reset it when you go back into bright ambient.)
  • If your camera model has the FV Lock function, it does not use the D-lens distance data, so its use can ignore this problem too.
  • Tilting or rotating the Nikon flash head (for bounce) switches out D-lens distance support. The bounce path is assumed to be a different distance.
  • I also have a Yongnuo YN565EX flash, and the Nikon system also defaults to TTL BL with it, but it does not suffer this problem, it causes system to ignore D lens. Probably third party flashes do not report head tilt?
Click to expand...

What I meant here was that "D" lenses aren't significantly better than non-D lenses, not that a D lens providing bad data wouldn't cause problems.
 
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