Ideal SLR camera for a student

My daughter is starting her photography course in September. For the first semester they are using film cameras to "slow the students down" and make them think about what they are trying to achieve with their cameras. Then they can opt to stay on film or use a mixture of film/digital or go fully digital after the first semester.

Can anyone recommend a good student SLR. (I have always been an Olympus girl, so I dont know anything about the Nikon film cameras.)
What do I need to look out for/avoid?
Ideally I would like one that comes with a couple of lenses (ones that I could use on the full-frame DSLR I will be getting later this year would be fab )

Any advice/help/guidance would be great.

Many thanks

T

What school is this? Making students use a film camera is about as logical as having new algebra students revert to using an abacus.

Well I kind of agree with Browncoat but also your teacher as digital does allow you to shoot and bugger the consequences. There may be a better way to slow the students down but I wouldn't know.
Seriously there are so many options out there that it all depends on 2 things (IMO).
1. Your budget
2. Where you want to go with this thing.

I was very fortunate in that I had no answer to both but was faced with a 24 hour special and had to make a decision and pulled the trigger (I'm like that).
I'm glad I was forced into making that decision otherwise I might still be doing research.

I am happy with my camera, suspect that I may upgrade one day, as it does everything I ask and need of it during this learning curve. But … I am an old fart and maybe your daughter is a quicker learner and a D7100 or even D800/810 is more to her liking (and your budget)

Just get her shooting and make damn sure it is a NIKON!!!!!

Your daughter's instructor probably has an additional motive besides slowing them down. You can find many older Nikon film cameras with the nikon standard "F" mount on eBay for less than $50...

Here's an example...

Nikon N55 with 28 80 Zoom Lens Nikon N 55 28 80 mm Zoom Lens 28 80mm Nikon N55 018208017188 | eBay

If the students are paying for their own film, well it won't take long before they TRY to get the exposure down pat. I understand, it makes them think about what there doing rather than gimp and hit the delete button. When my boys are old enough to start driving. They will learn to drive stick before stepping in an automatic. Like Fred stated. There are all kinds of bodies on the internet. Nice thing about sticking with Nikon is the older lens they use on the older body will work with todays modern cameras.

FredKingston said:

Your daughter's instructor probably has an additional motive besides slowing them down.

Click to expand...

He's probably a Grumpy Old Film Guy...some former portrait photographer who shot film, his studio went under, and he can't understand digital.

For learning the best film cameras are fully manual - no batteries (or with batteries for the meter only). If you think she will continue with photography then get a Nikon, else any film camera will do. Better get one from a camera shop nearby, and try it out with a roll.

Interesting thread. I am with the folks who kind of don't see the logic in getting the students to first use film. You can use a DSLR in M mode and do everything manually. I get that the teacher does not want the students to just fire away in auto, but film?? So, after spending a hundred or so dollars on a kit, plus the film, plus the processing (will they process the film at the school? Who is paying for the supplies?), he then wants them to invest in a DSLR? I really can't see many of them wanting to stick with film. Personally, i would get them all to shoot in manual on a DSLR and also teach them how to use a histogram. Personally, i just don't see what film can teach them that shooting in M on a DSLR can't.

AC016 said:

Interesting thread. I am with the folks who kind of don't see the logic in getting the students to first use film. You can use a DSLR in M mode and do everything manually. I get that the teacher does not want the students to just fire away in auto, but film?? So, after spending a hundred or so dollars on a kit, plus the film, plus the processing (will they process the film at the school? Who is paying for the supplies?), he then wants them to invest in a DSLR? I really can't see many of them wanting to stick with film. Personally, i would get them all to shoot in manual on a DSLR and also teach them how to use a histogram. Personally, i just don't see what film can teach them that shooting in M on a DSLR can't.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with this, especially if there are no developing facilities in the school. If they have B&W developing facility, then it is slightly better, but in today's scenario, with film fast disappearing from a lot of regions, teaching with film cameras is carrying a bit too far. The only reason I can see, is that as the cost of mistakes is relatively high with film, students may take more pain in learning and implementing the basics fast - there is a financial incentive to get it right in the camera itself.

To actually answer the question rather than debate the merit or logic of the requirement: the Nikon FM is (was) built like a tank yet still fairly small and light. It is an all manual, mechanical camera with the batteries only powering the light meter. It uses Nikon "F" mount lenses so the lenses can also mount on a Nikon digital body. Used FMs can be found pretty cheaply, around $100 or less with a 50mm lens.


BTW, I completely agree with starting Photo 1 students on film.

The Nikon FM10 is still sold new. It is an entry level SLR. Not sure if all of them come with a lens, but this one comes with a 35-70mm lens although that doesn't offer the best field of view. The lens will work on a DSLR, too.

Nikon FM10 35mm SLR Camera with 35-70mm Lens 1689 B&H Photo

AC016 said:

Interesting thread. I am with the folks who kind of don't see the logic in getting the students to first use film. You can use a DSLR in M mode and do everything manually. I get that the teacher does not want the students to just fire away in auto, but film?? So, after spending a hundred or so dollars on a kit, plus the film, plus the processing (will they process the film at the school? Who is paying for the supplies?), he then wants them to invest in a DSLR? I really can't see many of them wanting to stick with film. Personally, i would get them all to shoot in manual on a DSLR and also teach them how to use a histogram. Personally, i just don't see what film can teach them that shooting in M on a DSLR can't.

Click to expand...

Could NOT agree more. I agree there are some valuable lessons that could be learned using and processing film. As an intellectual exercise definitely it should be covered, maybe even some hands-on experimentation with film, but to require every student INVEST in a film camera is a little ridiculous in my opinion. Are they going to be printing as well because if they are, that's going to get expensive pretty fast. All that being said, I doubt very much it matters much what film camera you wind up getting for your daughter because it's going to be discarded like yesterdays newspaper (newspapers *are* still a thing, right?) in a few months.

But, more to the point, I would suggest something like this Nikon FG-20 on eBay for $80. Comes with a decent lens.

....

There is no way to better understand photography than using film, developing it and printing it. It gets you to understand exposure, film latitude. When I first started to shoot weddings with a local pro, he just handed me a 12 exposure 120 B&W film and told me that he'd let me shoot color as soon as all my 12 shots would be perfectly exposed with and without manual flash. It got me in line and I learned about incident metering and reflective metering.

So I guess the teacher we are talking about in this thread probably has some pedagogic reasons to use film exclusively for the first session.

So, back to the question, any Nikon SLR would fit the bill since Nikon F mount lenses can still be used on today's DSLRs.

Marcel said:

There is no way to better understand photography than using film, developing it and printing it. It gets you to understand exposure, film latitude. When I first started to shoot weddings with a local pro, he just handed me a 12 exposure 120 B&W film and told me that he'd let me shoot color as soon as all my 12 shots would be perfectly exposed with and without manual flash. It got me in line and I learned about incident metering and reflective metering.

So I guess the teacher we are talking about in this thread probably has some pedagogic reasons to use film exclusively for the first session.

So, back to the question, any Nikon SLR would fit the bill since Nikon F mount lenses can still be used on today's DSLRs.

Click to expand...

Good reasoning, but could you not learn incident and reflective metering with a DSLR? Maybe i am just to young to see the benefits of film, lol.

P.S.: did you get your X10 fixed?

I look at the slowing down statement to mean that with DSLR most newbies take the approach of spray and pray. With film you have a set number of shots and have to focus on the basics and really learn the elements of photography. Yes you could do the same thing sort of with DSLR by giving the students a small memory card I suppose. Maybe I just killed my own arguement.

I suppose learning film first could possibly instill some patience into the students, and it might be great as a basis to see where some of the terms and reasoning comes from. But on a practical side, I started off using my DSLR on manual and I think it offers plenty of what is needed without increased cost, especially when it's obvious that this is the direction photography is going. Not film.

I'm sorry I can't advise you on what Nikon SLR film model would be best for a student. But as a DSLR shooter if I were going to buy a film SLR that still might get some use, I'd likely buy one of the F4 models. Though I'm not sure it would quality for a student in a film photography class. They may list certain things needed to qualify in the initial papers handed out for the class, or course requirements sheet or something like that.

Please let us know what Nikon SLR you end up getting!

I agree that film has its merits, but not in this context. Film has no place in a Photography 101 type of class. As a 2nd year elective, yes. No newbie in the history of newbies slows down. But, I digress. There's no point in debating the flaws of the education system. A cheap film camera is peanuts compared to other costs. Hell, I have to buy my daughter (a high school Freshman this year) a $200 calculator that could pilot the Enterprise.

This is what started my downward spiral, so it hit a nerve LOL!

I was an IT major at a 4-year college and elected to take a class in Photography to satisfy an art requirement. I had been taking photos for awhile and enjoyed it, but this class required a DSLR. Next thing you know, I'm transferring to a photography school, quitting my day job, and starting a photography business.

without going into the film/digi debate, your question was for camera/lens recommendations. One of the most important factors here is your budget, especially as you mention that you would like to start with full frame compatible lenses. Give us your budget and we will see what we can offer

AC016 said:

Good reasoning, but could you not learn incident and reflective metering with a DSLR? Maybe i am just to young to see the benefits of film, lol.

P.S.: did you get your X10 fixed?

Click to expand...

The X10 should be back this week I hope. It will cost around 250...

The thing is with the DSLR you don't see the negative. With the help of the negative, it's easy to show the lack of details in the shadows and highlights and people can learn the basics of B&W enlarging, dodging, burning in etc. Historically speaking, I think it's an important part of photography. Plus, artists should not be in a hurry, it does take time to learn and master a craft. With the DSLR, it's just too tempting to just shoot away and then try to correct with Photoshop.

There is another thread about someone who wants to have settings to do outdoor portraits at night... Since he doesn't know anything about exposure and expect the camera to make most of the decisions for him, how long do you think he can last in business...

Marcel said:

The X10 should be back this week I hope. It will cost around 250...

The thing is with the DSLR you don't see the negative. With the help of the negative, it's easy to show the lack of details in the shadows and highlights and people can learn the basics of B&W enlarging, dodging, burning in etc. Historically speaking, I think it's an important part of photography. Plus, artists should not be in a hurry, it does take time to learn and master a craft. With the DSLR, it's just too tempting to just shoot away and then try to correct with Photoshop.

There is another thread about someone who wants to have settings to do outdoor portraits at night... Since he doesn't know anything about exposure and expect the camera to make most of the decisions for him, how long do you think he can last in business...

Click to expand...

Happy it is being repaired, but $250? Ouch! I love my X10, so i don't think i would give it up either. Yes, i saw that thread. I would swallow my pride and politely bow out. With the stage he is at in photography, what this "client" wants him to do will most likely not end well.