Web page photo pricing.

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
I recently got asked to do photos for a bed and breakfast. I had already done one session at the B+B and have to do at least two more, if not three. I don't know what to charge or how to charge. I'm leaning toward an hourly rate. It is also 60 miles round trip. What is the average going rate for something like this?
 

480sparky

Senior Member
I would base my price more towards what they are using the images for, and for how long.

Are they just going to be for a few newspaper or magazine ads? Or will it be more for a long-term advertising program? Will some of the images end up on the front of the menu for years? On business cards? Flyers? Brochures?
 

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
Along with the website they will be making brochures. I'm working with the web designer. So, I imagine they would use the pictures for a couple years then update.
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
What is the average going rate for something like this?

There is no average going rate for something like this.

Keep in mind that the photography is only about 10% of your time. When you go to a restaurant, you're not just paying for the chef who prepared the food. You're also paying the dish washer, the people at the front door, the beer guy, the cleaning lady, and the building.

You have a commute, so bill mileage. You have setup and tear down time, post processing, etc. Don't sell yourself short. A lot of photogs new in the biz make the colossal mistake of only charging for the photos and jump for joy when they're getting paid to take pictures. NO...you're losing money, unless you consider your time to be worthless.

This is a local gig, so you need to be competitive. Don't be the cheap guy, but don't price yourself out of the job either. Do research.
 

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
I don't plan to just sell the photos. I'm hoping this job lands me more commercial work like this. Your right! I don't want to be the cheap guy anymore. I want to establish a clientele. If this works out with the web designer I should have some work coming. This is a new venture for me. So, asking questions here and researching.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Here's a story I post on the electrical forums. It can be easily shifted to photography.



Years ago, Joe Sixpack got a job as a helper for Fly-By-Night Electric. He started out working with a journeyman wiring houses for Cut Corners Construction. Joe turned out to be a pretty good electrician, learning fast and working hard. As the years went by, Joe got pretty good at wiring houses. Soon, he was running the jobs himself, and had his own helper.

Then recently, Joe got to thinking. "Fly-By-Night charges Cut Corners ten grand to wire a house. I know I get paid about $1500, and my helper gets $1000. I know the material costs around $2500.......... so that means the boss is making five thousand just sitting at the office endorsing checks!"

So Joe decides to strike out on his own. "Man, this'll be great! I'll charge just $7000 to wire the houses, and with only $2500 in material, I'll pocket $4500 for each house I do....... Jeez, that's more than three times what I was making for 'the man'!"

So Joe hangs out his shingle. . He doesn't have any health insurance, thinking he'll get that later when things really get started. Suddenly, he realizes he needs to be licensed. So he takes the test, and spends more money for the test and license. He also doesn't understand that driving his own truck costs money, both in gas, repairs, insurance, etc.

All fired up, he gets his first job for Cut Corners. Right from the start, Cut Corners wants a current liability insurance certificate. So Joe forks out $3000 for insurance. A few weeks later, he gets a letter from the state saying he's not a registered contractor. So another $600 is spent. Oh, yea, the city says they need $1250 for a permit.

A few days into the first job, Cut Corners says they need temporary power. Joe didn't figure the cost of a temp pole into the job, but he builds one and gets it hooked up. Joe finds out he needs more than a 3/8" drill and 4-foot stepladder. So he goes out and buys more cords and a couple ladders. Every time Joe needs material or another tool, he'd drive down to Home Depot and whip out the plastic. Pretty soon, he realizes he's a couple days behind schedule. Why? He's working alone, and doesn't have his old helper with him.

So Joe starts working 12-hours days, and a couple Saturdays as well. He skips his daughter's dance recital, and misses his son's Little league game. He comes home dirty, tired and grouchy, which cause his family to stay away from him.

By the time the house is roughed in, his credit card is maxed out and Joe needs to borrow money from his parents. "Just until I get this job done, then I'll be rolling in dough" he tells them. He borrows even more money just to buy the material he needs to trim the house. By this time, he has alienated his family and taken his credit rating down below 400.

And the sad truth is, by the time job is done, he's been paid only $7000 and has spent $14000 just to 'be in business'. So he tells Cut Corners the next job will be $8500, thinking he can 'make it up' on the future work. But even that 'extra' $1500 'from the next job' won't cover his $7000 shortfall. Besides, Cut Corners won't hire him again because Joe caused them to get behind on their schedule. And to add insult to injury, they found someone else to do the job for less.

Dejected, Joe goes home, only to find a letter from the IRS saying they want $3250 for the income tax Joe owes from that job. The state also wants $675 for sales tax. All the 'profit' Joe thought he was going to make went to pay his bills, leaving nothing to pay his parents back with.



And who did Cut Corners hire to wire their next house? Joe's old helper from Fly-By-Night!




Moral of the story: It doesn't matter how good you are in the trade. If you don't know your costs, you ain't gonna make it in the business world.
 

Eyelight

Senior Member
What they said and a few things to think about:

What is an hour or day of your time worth? It cost to breath and as the clock ticks away, the electric meter and all the other meters keep draining away your time (the time it takes to make a dollar to keep the meters turned on).

Will you be recording their creativity or are they using your creativity? Being creative should be worth more.

Do they need X number of pictures?

An agreement for x number of pictures for $x.xx each would seem to me to be a good approach. The more pics, the cheaper per pic, but have a minimum total $$, even if they choose to use a lesser number of pics. Take more and let them choose the X number, and maybe they will want more.

Good websites update their content on a regular basis, so repeat work could come into play (or sell more now so they can update throughout the year).

Most important is to charge enough to enjoy the activity. If you cannot get that much, consider not doing it.
 

Eyelight

Senior Member
One more thought.

Be familiar with copyright issues and who will own the images once you are finished. I assume that ownership is still determined by if it is work for hire or not, but it has been awhile.

If they will own the images, price should be higher.

If you will own the images, then usage rights come into play and you may want property releases for anything that could be sold otherwise.
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
I don't usually link this, and I'll probably end up regretting it later, but here it is:

NPPA Cost of Doing Business Calculator

I want to be encouraging, I really do. I want to be that guy who cheers people on, saying "You can do this!". But most of the time, I'd be lying. I have this disease called Blunt Force Trauma Honesty. I lack the sugar coated filter that a lot of people have. And no, it's not just because this is the interwebs, this is just how I am.

I've said this before several times on these forums: if you're asking how much you should charge, you shouldn't be charging. Point blank, there it is. You can not be in business, any business, if you don't know how to make money. Period.

Every business has expenses, as Sparky cleverly illustrated above. Every time you press that shutter button, you are losing money. That camera will not last forever. Digital ain't free, yo. With each photo you take, the life of your camera decreases and at some point, it will need to be replaced. That is a cost of doing business. Factor that in with every single piece of equipment used, right down to the cost of your internet and electric bill that you're going to need to email those photos.

It is very easy to lose your ass in this business because a lot of what you earn seems like pure profit. It isn't.

And I don't say this to sound like a condescending douche. I say this because I've been there. I've failed, picked myself up, and found success. I want you to succeed also.

Good luck!
 

FastGlass

Senior Member
Holy crap, nothing like scaring someone out of doing what he wants. If you're sitting around doing nothing anyways because I assume you have a steady job and this is just something on the side. What costs do you really have doing this? Fuel, time. He's sitting around anyway so who cares what he makes for his time. You do it, learn what things cost and adjust. Even if he charges nothing. What's it really costing him? Hell I do things for free all the time. In fact I'm doing a shoot for the school for the 5th grade graduation. What am I charging? Nothing. The parents will pay for the prints so it doesn't cost me anything but my time. My wife's in the PTA and they can't afford to spend money for this. So who cares if I get paid. Not saying that I'll keep doing this for free but when starting out. What real costs are truly there?
 

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
I'm not here to argue. I am trying to get a ball park due to the fact I never did this type of work. I am just adding up the different costs of doing this. Camera wear, car wear, time at site, time post processing, food if I get hungry Etc..... I should have put it another way. If this was you and you are going to charge the customer, what would you charge. Say 25-30 pictures( maybe more, I think they want a larger photo album website.), 60 miles per trip, pictures used in brochure and website.. Should I come up with a flat rate or hourly rate. Approximately 3-4 trips. I don't know too many photographers in the area that do this so, I asked here. I am getting my foot in the door really fast around here and I don't want to scare them off with a large price at the same time don't want to under price myself. Still uneasy giving a price and see them running!
 
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Fred Kingston

Senior Member
I recently got asked to do photos for a bed and breakfast. I had already done one session at the B+B and have to do at least two more, if not three. I don't know what to charge or how to charge. I'm leaning toward an hourly rate. It is also 60 miles round trip. What is the average going rate for something like this?

I see in your profile, you list yourself as "semi-pro' ...

First question is, Is it your intention to move to "Pro" status ? And by that, I mean, where photography becomes your sole source of income.

If it is your sole source of income, there's a specific calculation to derive what you need to be charging, and specific rules to follow...

If it's NOT your sole income source, then hobbyist rates and procedures apply...

Which is it?
 

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
I see in your profile, you list yourself as "semi-pro' ...

First question is, Is it your intention to move to "Pro" status ? And by that, I mean, where photography becomes your sole source of income.

If it is your sole source of income, there's a specific calculation to derive what you need to be charging, and specific rules to follow...

If it's NOT your sole income source, then hobbyist rates and procedures apply...

Which is it?
I do plan to go pro. Somewhere in the future. I'm trying to build my knowledge of the business side and build up on customers. It depends on when my job decides to give an earlier retirement then 30 years. Due to working Saturdays, my weddings are limited. I can book more but, no Saturday off guarantee. This kind of work I am posting can be done on Sundays. Until then I stay Semi-Pro.
 
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Eyelight

Senior Member
Nothing at all against gifting ones talents to the community, school, your neighbor, best friend, only friend, dog's friend's master, etc. It is a great opportunity to give to the charity of ones choice, but giving away quality work in a commercial setting allows the commercial entity to take advantage of the giver of quality work and actually hurts the photographers who feed their family doing the same thing.

Notice the term quality work. If one's work is quality they should be asking and getting a quality price.

In this setting a quality photo should be worth the same regardless of who created it. If the commercial entity were to simply buy 10 stock photos for non-exclusive use, they could be laying out $2,500 or more. In this case their getting custom work and their intent is to make more money for themselves. So, I wouldn't hesitate to ask a quality price for quality work.

I would be thinking $300 per usable photo. I may not get much work, but I would be enjoying every minute of it when I do. :)

Make sure they know that you want to work with them and whatever price you offer to them, simply add the question, "Does this fit your budget?"
 

Fred Kingston

Senior Member
I do plan to go pro. Somewhere in the future. I'm trying to build my knowledge of the business side and build up on customers. It depends on when my job decides to give an earlier retirement then 30 years. Due to working Saturdays, my weddings are limited. I can book more but, no Saturday off guarantee. This kind of work I am posting can be done on Sundays. Until then I stay Semi-Pro.

then you should start charging normal pro prices... nothing will hurt you more than trying to go Pro with a base of customers that are used to you charging them hobbyist rates...

there are many formulas for what you should be charging... most are governed by what your surrounding market area charges... You should be getting active in your local Chamber of Commerce, and seeking out where your local Pros hang out... and joining your local camera/photog clubs so you can come into contact with the local Pros... that serves more than a few purposes... gaining credibility within your own area...and giving the local Pros an opportunity to meet you... there are probably more than a few professional associations that will welcome you, and as a benefit, you'll gain insight/knowledge into what other Pros in your area are charging/doing...
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
What am I charging? Nothing...So who cares if I get paid. Not saying that I'll keep doing this for free but when starting out. What real costs are truly there?

This is the Photography Business forum - Discussion on the management involved with running a photography business. It is a place to post questions and answers about running a photography business. If you are charging nothing, and you do not care if you get paid, then you are not in the photography business.

It has been pretty well explained in this thread (and others in this forum) about what real costs there truly are.

Holy crap, nothing like scaring someone out of doing what he wants.


He should be scared. Everyone who is willing to put it all on the line and start their own business is scared to death. It's kind of a big deal, especially when you're just getting your feet wet and trying to get your first commercial gig. Do it right, and you make some money and possibly have a client that will refer you to others. Do it wrong, and it's a burned bridge.

If you want to work for free, more power to ya. There are plenty of other places to discuss that, but it's not here.

 

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
I didn't say I was doing it for free. By any means. I have had a business name and tax # due to my picture sales, portraits and few weddings I do a year. This is just an addition to what I do now. I also do give some of my work to charity events. It gives me an idea how my stuff goes for in the public eye, compared to what I sell it for. The last 2 framed prints I did went for $125 and $150.
 
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Browncoat

Senior Member
I keep coming back to this thread...something kept poking at the back of my mind and I finally figured out what it was.

Somewhere I read about this very specific kind of pricing. I think I've narrowed it down to two books, so I'll do page thumbing tonight and see what I can come up with.
 
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