One not so obvious advantage that the D600\D610 has over the D800 is better noise control. The D800's sensor pixels are more densely packed providing higher resolution, but at the price of more noise. Noise interference between the closer sensor pixels is the culprit. So if noise is a concern to you, as it should be when you shoot at low light levels, then perhaps the D600\D610 might be a better choice.
D600\D610 vs D800
- Thread starter nmccamy
- Start date
Mfrankfort
Senior Member
I'll take a D4. haha.
BackdoorArts
Senior Member
Here's a side-by-side at 100% crop (which makes the D600 images larger and the real comparison tougher), and both sensors are pretty darn great at high ISO.
Nikon D600 vs. Nikon D4 - High ISO Test « NEW CAMERA
Yes indeed! The D4 sensor pixels are large and neighboring pixels are very content! Noise is lower than the D600 and much lower than the D800 whose pixels are crammed together.
The D800 wins in resolution but loses in noise (even so, the D800 still has pretty darn low noise levels).
The D800 wins in resolution but loses in noise (even so, the D800 still has pretty darn low noise levels).
I'm curious how you determined the D800 shows more noise than the D600/610. From most accounts, the two are pretty much the same. Nasim did a side by side exhaustive comparison between the two. Here's his summary
Here is the link to his comparison and his ISO study - Nikon D600 Review - Page 7 of 10
I don't know how the other person determined the D600 as having a slight edge over the D800 when it comes to noise, but here is a comparison by snapsort of the two giving the D600 the edge with less noise.
Curious as to why you say in your signature that you plan to get a D800E with your noise concern?
Jake and I have owned both and he still does. They are both similar in like for like tests. Basically they are both excellent but not a D4. The problem with the 800 is people keep zooming to 100% on images without considering how big that actually is.
I did not conduct any tests myself. I cannot say where I read the reviews that showed the D600\D610 had less noise than the D800, but I remember seeing the comparisons, and though the difference wasn't great, it was noticeable, at least with their example.
I personally only use reviews and word-of-mouth as guides. The only way I can proceed beyond that is to rent the two cameras and do my own comparisons using my own specific techniques, based on my photographic style. I have not done that, so I speak not from experience, but from a couple of reviews.
I do know for a fact that the sensor pixels on the D800 are smaller and more tightly packed than the D600, supporting the contention that it will exhibit a little more noise.
Just because "it may" exhibit a little more noise would not deter me from purchasing a D800\D800E. My style of photography probably would not suffer because of it. But I am a pixel peeper, and would not know for sure unless I conducted my own tests. But I don't want to spend the money to do this because I think there is a new camera on the horizon.
I'm on the fence about getting the D800E or the D610. If the OLPF was removed from the D610, I would buy it. My gut tells me that a D610E or equivalent is coming out very soon and I'm waiting for it. Waiting for something that only exists in my diseased mind!
I personally only use reviews and word-of-mouth as guides. The only way I can proceed beyond that is to rent the two cameras and do my own comparisons using my own specific techniques, based on my photographic style. I have not done that, so I speak not from experience, but from a couple of reviews.
I do know for a fact that the sensor pixels on the D800 are smaller and more tightly packed than the D600, supporting the contention that it will exhibit a little more noise.
Just because "it may" exhibit a little more noise would not deter me from purchasing a D800\D800E. My style of photography probably would not suffer because of it. But I am a pixel peeper, and would not know for sure unless I conducted my own tests. But I don't want to spend the money to do this because I think there is a new camera on the horizon.
I'm on the fence about getting the D800E or the D610. If the OLPF was removed from the D610, I would buy it. My gut tells me that a D610E or equivalent is coming out very soon and I'm waiting for it. Waiting for something that only exists in my diseased mind!
Here is an example of a side-by-side test comparing noise. They concluded the differences were not enough to be of concern:
Nikon D600 vs D800 noise | Cameralabs
Nikon D600 vs D800 noise | Cameralabs
And this person thinks there is a big difference (this is why I use reviews only as a guide):
Nikon D800 noise same as D7100 - D600 closer to D4.: Nikon FX SLR (D1-D4, D600-D800) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
Nikon D800 noise same as D7100 - D600 closer to D4.: Nikon FX SLR (D1-D4, D600-D800) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
It should be very clear, from the examples below, why I use reviews only as a guide. For me, the only reliable reviews I can count on for the photographic techniques and styles I use, are hands-on reviews I conduct myself. Renting cameras, and running my own tests, is the only way I can feel confident that I'm making the right decision.
This reviewer thinks the D600 has more noise than the D800:
Nikon D600 vs. D800 Hands-on Review and Tips
DxOMark rates the Low Light ISO rating higher for the D600:
Camera Sensor Ratings - DxOMark
This reviewer says the noise levels of the D800 are bad:
Nikon d800 – The Good, Bad and Beautiful. | Lee Craker
This reviewer shows that the D800 has better noise control than the D600:
Nikon D4 vs D800 vs D600 full-frame low-light showdown - Pocket-lint
This reviewer thinks the D800 handles noise better than the D4:
Night Photography | Digital After Dark » Blog Archive » Nikon Cameras Noise Comparison
This reviewer raves about the D800, but thinks the noise is better controlled in the Canon 5D Mark III:
Nikon D800 review | Digital Camera World
This reviewer says the noise at high ISOs in the D800 is an issue:
Nikon D800 Review | DSLR Camera | Digital Trends Reviews
This reviewer found that the D600 had marginally less noise than the D800:
Field review: Nikon D600 versus D800 :: Wetpixel.com
This reviewer thinks the D600 has more noise than the D800:
Nikon D600 vs. D800 Hands-on Review and Tips
DxOMark rates the Low Light ISO rating higher for the D600:
Camera Sensor Ratings - DxOMark
This reviewer says the noise levels of the D800 are bad:
Nikon d800 – The Good, Bad and Beautiful. | Lee Craker
This reviewer shows that the D800 has better noise control than the D600:
Nikon D4 vs D800 vs D600 full-frame low-light showdown - Pocket-lint
This reviewer thinks the D800 handles noise better than the D4:
Night Photography | Digital After Dark » Blog Archive » Nikon Cameras Noise Comparison
This reviewer raves about the D800, but thinks the noise is better controlled in the Canon 5D Mark III:
Nikon D800 review | Digital Camera World
This reviewer says the noise at high ISOs in the D800 is an issue:
Nikon D800 Review | DSLR Camera | Digital Trends Reviews
This reviewer found that the D600 had marginally less noise than the D800:
Field review: Nikon D600 versus D800 :: Wetpixel.com
BackdoorArts
Senior Member
I've been following your posts, Nick, and I'm definitely having a bit of a disconnect given that, 1) you don't currently have a camera, 2) you seem to be in flux given where you'll be living and what specifically you'll be shooting, and 3) all I have to go on regarding how you'll be using your camera is the goal statement in your signature. From what I've been able to gather the idea is that you want to be able to create ultra-high resolution images suitable for very large printing with the greatest detail possible, and you do not necessarily need the most MP's per photo since you will be creating these images using panoramic techniques, but I get that MPs make for greater details. So you're somewhere between the D610 and the D800 and are stuck on 2 things, noise and AI filters.
I have to assume that these landscapes you plan on shooting will include night sky shots taken in extremely low light and high ISO's, otherwise you should have no reason to even be talking ISO noise since the performance of both the FX cameras is beyond impressive at anything considered a reasonable ISO. Given the panoramic landscapes you'll be shooting, you're bound to be using a tripod with a pano-head of sorts, so unless you're in very low light shooting in the "reasonable ISO" range shouldn't be a problem. And even when it's not, the differences between the two cameras should be of minimal impact given the technology available to reduce the already minimal noise levels you get is outstanding.
So what you need to decide is just how much AI filtration will mess with those miniscule details that will only be visible when enlarged. My contention is this: If you are willing to use panoramic techniques to create your landscapes then the AI filtration factor is likely more than negated by your ability shoot at greater focal length and get all the details you could want in individual shots before stitching, in which case I would opt for the larger pixel of the D610 to allow for better light sensitivity and more information per pixel.
Think of it this way. You're shooting a 120 degree field of view landscape. You lay out a grid pattern and decide just how many shots you want to stitch across that pattern. Say you shoot with a 70-200mm f/2.8 at 130mm and a D800e, and say that works out to 32 stitched frames in an 8x4 pattern. Why not shoot at 200mm with a D610, shooting 55 frames in a 11x5 pattern (the math is wildly estimated just to give you an idea)? You should theoretically be getting better detailed individual images with the longer reach, and with the D610 only having 2/3 the number of pixels the overall combined file size would not be that much greater than the 32 image composite from the D800.
What I'm getting at is that you may be drastically overthinking things. I have both cameras and love them both. I will tell you this, with great certainty - if you are looking to do large scale panos then you better invest heavily in computing power. I have a MacBook Pro with 16GB of RAM and am unable to stitch panos of more than 10 frames from the D800 without Photoshop blowing up on me. The 36MP files are tremendously large, and any and all workarounds to make it happen all come at a reduction in individual image size and resolution - something that seems to be at the top of your list of things not to lose. So strongly consider that as you do your deciding.
Honestly, you can't go wrong with either camera. But given that you have none now, and have given no real indication of what was the last camera you shot with and what you did with it, I just get the feeling that you're way over-thinking this whole thing, and letting the countless opinions of others sway you at every turn. My recommendation? Rent both of the bodies and a 70-200mm f2.8, get in the car and shoot, shoot, shoot. Take them home and process them. I suspect you'll have your answer in short order. Until then, it's just wheel spinning (which is the closest you'll ever get to me using an automobile analogy when talking cameras - lol).
I have to assume that these landscapes you plan on shooting will include night sky shots taken in extremely low light and high ISO's, otherwise you should have no reason to even be talking ISO noise since the performance of both the FX cameras is beyond impressive at anything considered a reasonable ISO. Given the panoramic landscapes you'll be shooting, you're bound to be using a tripod with a pano-head of sorts, so unless you're in very low light shooting in the "reasonable ISO" range shouldn't be a problem. And even when it's not, the differences between the two cameras should be of minimal impact given the technology available to reduce the already minimal noise levels you get is outstanding.
So what you need to decide is just how much AI filtration will mess with those miniscule details that will only be visible when enlarged. My contention is this: If you are willing to use panoramic techniques to create your landscapes then the AI filtration factor is likely more than negated by your ability shoot at greater focal length and get all the details you could want in individual shots before stitching, in which case I would opt for the larger pixel of the D610 to allow for better light sensitivity and more information per pixel.
Think of it this way. You're shooting a 120 degree field of view landscape. You lay out a grid pattern and decide just how many shots you want to stitch across that pattern. Say you shoot with a 70-200mm f/2.8 at 130mm and a D800e, and say that works out to 32 stitched frames in an 8x4 pattern. Why not shoot at 200mm with a D610, shooting 55 frames in a 11x5 pattern (the math is wildly estimated just to give you an idea)? You should theoretically be getting better detailed individual images with the longer reach, and with the D610 only having 2/3 the number of pixels the overall combined file size would not be that much greater than the 32 image composite from the D800.
What I'm getting at is that you may be drastically overthinking things. I have both cameras and love them both. I will tell you this, with great certainty - if you are looking to do large scale panos then you better invest heavily in computing power. I have a MacBook Pro with 16GB of RAM and am unable to stitch panos of more than 10 frames from the D800 without Photoshop blowing up on me. The 36MP files are tremendously large, and any and all workarounds to make it happen all come at a reduction in individual image size and resolution - something that seems to be at the top of your list of things not to lose. So strongly consider that as you do your deciding.
Honestly, you can't go wrong with either camera. But given that you have none now, and have given no real indication of what was the last camera you shot with and what you did with it, I just get the feeling that you're way over-thinking this whole thing, and letting the countless opinions of others sway you at every turn. My recommendation? Rent both of the bodies and a 70-200mm f2.8, get in the car and shoot, shoot, shoot. Take them home and process them. I suspect you'll have your answer in short order. Until then, it's just wheel spinning (which is the closest you'll ever get to me using an automobile analogy when talking cameras - lol).
If you are going to do pano and stitch, then I agree that a lower resolution fatter pixel sensor will be a better option, as you will get better colour depth, and normally it does not make much of difference between 20 and 40 shots.
For large pano shots and subsequent stitching you will need to use dedicated stitching programs, else you will be bogged down for hours manipulating huge data in Photoshop or similar programs.
For large pano shots and subsequent stitching you will need to use dedicated stitching programs, else you will be bogged down for hours manipulating huge data in Photoshop or similar programs.
Jake,
You are right on! Absolutely! I am a perfectionist and that is a problem. I know that I must rent the gear and evaluate it myself before I will be happy. That's just me!
I rate myself as a professional photographer, only because I have made a living at it. It does not mean that I'm a good photographer. So, in my opinion, my talent can't even come close to the perfectionism I seek. I'm also a computer engineer, and that discipline has caused me to evolve into a very detail oriented thinker. I admit I have psychological problems, and my wife reminds me of that everyday!
When it comes right down to it, my ultimate goal is to make people more aware of our natural resources and wildlife. I have had, and will continue to have, fun delivering this message, via, photographs. And now, more specifically, I plan on creating high-def photos, something I have never done. And I have made the switch to Nikon, at least in my head! I have rented Nikon gear, and was very impressed compared to Canon which I have used for decades. But, right now I do not own a camera, unless you want to consider my $18 cell phone!
I've always been an odd duck. Everywhere I've ever been, in every stage of my life, I've always been aware of how different I am. Am I strange and eccentric? My experience tell me yes! If my wife reads this, she will agree is spades!
Oh, and about the computer gear requirements. I have built all of my computers through the years, and have experimented around with 216 MP files, and that won't be a problem.
You are right on! Absolutely! I am a perfectionist and that is a problem. I know that I must rent the gear and evaluate it myself before I will be happy. That's just me!
I rate myself as a professional photographer, only because I have made a living at it. It does not mean that I'm a good photographer. So, in my opinion, my talent can't even come close to the perfectionism I seek. I'm also a computer engineer, and that discipline has caused me to evolve into a very detail oriented thinker. I admit I have psychological problems, and my wife reminds me of that everyday!
When it comes right down to it, my ultimate goal is to make people more aware of our natural resources and wildlife. I have had, and will continue to have, fun delivering this message, via, photographs. And now, more specifically, I plan on creating high-def photos, something I have never done. And I have made the switch to Nikon, at least in my head! I have rented Nikon gear, and was very impressed compared to Canon which I have used for decades. But, right now I do not own a camera, unless you want to consider my $18 cell phone!
I've always been an odd duck. Everywhere I've ever been, in every stage of my life, I've always been aware of how different I am. Am I strange and eccentric? My experience tell me yes! If my wife reads this, she will agree is spades!
Oh, and about the computer gear requirements. I have built all of my computers through the years, and have experimented around with 216 MP files, and that won't be a problem.
Last edited:
I know you guys are concerned about my software, so let me list what I have, then let me know if I'm missing anything:
Photoshop CC
Lightroom 5
DxO Optics Pro 8
Nikon Capture NX2 2.4
Photomatix 4 Pro
Kolor AutoPano Giga version 3
PTGui Pro 9
Nik Software Complete Collection
AutoFX Suite
Alien Skin Blowup 3
Boundary Noise Reduction
Perfect Photo Suite 6
Phase One Capture One PRO v6
PhotoZoom Pro v5
Topaz Labs Suite
Vertus Fluid Mask 3
Virtual Photographer
OnOne Perfect Effects v4
Imagenomic Plugin Suite
Can't think of any others.
Photoshop CC
Lightroom 5
DxO Optics Pro 8
Nikon Capture NX2 2.4
Photomatix 4 Pro
Kolor AutoPano Giga version 3
PTGui Pro 9
Nik Software Complete Collection
AutoFX Suite
Alien Skin Blowup 3
Boundary Noise Reduction
Perfect Photo Suite 6
Phase One Capture One PRO v6
PhotoZoom Pro v5
Topaz Labs Suite
Vertus Fluid Mask 3
Virtual Photographer
OnOne Perfect Effects v4
Imagenomic Plugin Suite
Can't think of any others.