David Jay: Ken Rockwell's Prodigy

Status
Not open for further replies.
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
I have, by now, a well-documented disdain for Kenny. I believe the man is a vampire, preying on the photography community. He's a snake oil salesman, looking only to line his own pockets by peddling donations from hapless newbies who don't know good advice from bad.

And then there's David Jay, who takes all of this to a whole new level.

In case you haven't heard of this guy, he made a name for himself in the wedding photography business in the early 2000's. He was THE guy for high end glam wedding photography in California. And he was damn good. Unlike KR, this guy actually knows how to take a photograph. The problem is, the market boom in Cali crashed, and so did David Jay. He hasn't really picked up a camera since 2007.

What's he been doing since? Selling software to photographers.

First, there was The System. David Jay's program to "make it big" in wedding photography, where of course he tried to sell you even more of his junk. No different than those get-rich-quick in real estate infomercials really. The System is currently unavailable on Jay's site because it is undergoing a revamp after it was picked apart and exposed for what it really was.

Then, there's the PASS System. David Jay thinks photographers should charge by the hour, and basically give prints away for peanuts...using his software of course. You upload your galleries to his system to sell your prints dirt cheap ($1 for a 4x6, $4 for an 8x12), and he generously offers 50% of the profits to you. But then he double charges...out of your 50 cents profit comes a 19 cents charge to actually make the print. So you're not really making 50% are you?

Don't take my word for it. Do your own homework on this guy. There's a recent article about the PASS System over on Petapixel.

Consider yourselves warned.
 
Last edited:
P

piperbarb

Senior Member
Thanks for posting this. I agree with you. I did read the article on Petapixel. I had not heard of him before. Obviously, the only one who will make any money out of his system is himself. He's preying on the uninformed and the novices who really have very little experience in business in general and the photography business specifically. So, for every print ordered, he gets at least 69 cents and the photographer gets 31 cents at most. Good racket on his part.
 
L

laubach road

Senior Member
Browncoat said:
I have, by now, a well-documented disdain for Kenny. I believe the man is a vampire, preying on the photography community. He's a snake oil salesman, looking only to line his own pockets by peddling donations from hapless newbies who don't know good advice from bad.

And then there's David Jay, who takes all of this to a whole new level.

In case you haven't heard of this guy, he made a name for himself in the wedding photography business in the early 2000's. He was THE guy for high end glam wedding photography in California. And he was damn good. Unlike KR, this guy actually knows how to take a photograph. The problem is, the market boom in Cali crashed, and so did David Jay. He hasn't really picked up a camera since 2007.

What's he been doing since? Selling software to photographers.

First, there was The System. David Jay's program to "make it big" in wedding photography, where of course he tried to sell you even more of his junk. No different than those get-rich-quick in real estate infomercials really. The System is currently unavailable on Jay's site because it is undergoing a revamp after it was picked apart and exposed for what it really was.

Then, there's the PASS System. David Jay thinks photographers should charge by the hour, and basically give prints away for peanuts...using his software of course. You upload your galleries to his system to sell your prints dirt cheap ($1 for a 4x6, $4 for an 8x12), and he generously offers 50% of the profits to you. But then he double charges...out of your 50 cents profit comes a 19 cents charge to actually make the print. So you're not really making 50% are you?

Don't take my word for it. Do your own homework on this guy. There's a recent article about the PASS System over on Petapixel.

Consider yourselves warned.
Click to expand...

Hi y'all,

Wow! very strong words.

I hope this doesn't border on slander or libel.

Maybe you're right, but wouldn't it be better if we print these things with concrete proof/evidence and letting the other person know we printed this so he can reply.

Just wanna be fair.
 
C

crycocyon

Senior Member
laubach road said:
Hi y'all,

Wow! very strong words.

I hope this doesn't border on slander or libel.

Maybe you're right, but wouldn't it be better if we print these things with concrete proof/evidence and letting the other person know we printed this so he can reply.

Just wanna be fair.
Click to expand...


Huh?

Firstly, libel is the written word, slander is the spoken word, so libel would apply here.

Or rather, it doesn't.

Libel only applies to something that is said about someone that is false. If it happens to be true, even if it is going to affect someone's reputation, then that isn't libel.

Both Jay and Rockwell or anyone can read the posts here as this is a public forum. They are free to join up and counter anything that has been said.

But even then, if reference to what was said about Ken Rockwell would be considered libel, consider this: saying he is a vampire and snake oil salesman is obviously a figure of speech, not literal, and therefore simply opinion. Opinion is not libel. Libel would be to state that Ken really is a vampire ie: sucks blood and sleeps in a coffin during the night, as well as selling snake oil, for whatever reason.

;)
 
Last edited:
L

laubach road

Senior Member
crycocyon said:
Huh?

Firstly, libel is the written word, slander is the spoken word, so libel would apply here.

Or rather, it doesn't.

Libel only applies to something that is said about someone that is false. If it happens to be true, even if it is going to affect someone's reputation, then that isn't libel.

Both Jay and Rockwell or anyone can read the posts here as this is a public forum. They are free to join up and counter anything that has been said.

But even then, if reference to what was said about Ken Rockwell would be considered libel, consider this: saying he is a vampire and snake oil salesman is obviously a figure of speach, not literal, and therefore simply opinion. Opinion is not libel. Libel would be to state that Ken really is a vampire ie: sucks blood and sleeps in a coffin during the night, as well as selling snake oil, for whatever reason.

;)
Click to expand...

Cool!

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with how it's done , I usually thought when somebody says something bad about another guy, it's done up front/direct to the other guy. Or, at least give the other guy a chance to give his side.

Just saying................;)
 
Last edited:
R

Rick M

Senior Member
When these folks put themselves out in public for profit, they are wide open to all scrutiny (and deserve it). How many newbies have lost a lot of money due to these guys? They blast the internet with their opinion, we are allowed to offer ours :).
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
laubach road said:
Hi y'all,

Wow! very strong words.

I hope this doesn't border on slander or libel.

Maybe you're right, but wouldn't it be better if we print these things with concrete proof/evidence and letting the other person know we printed this so he can reply.

Just wanna be fair.
Click to expand...

Yes, they're strong words. My vocabulary isn't coated with sugar, sprinkles, rainbows, and unicorns.

As for the concrete proof you require, it's all out there for you to do your own homework. As far as KR is concerned, just view any single page on his site. There's bound to be dozens of panhandling attempts, in addition to non-compliance with an FTC law that requires him to disclose when site visitors are about to click a paid link. As for David Jay, just read the fine print. It's all there. So are dozens of other critiques of his program that are far worse than mine.

Lastly, either of them are free to create an account here and enter this debate if they feel the need to do so. It's beneath KR to actually engage with critics, but I wouldn't be surprised to see David Jay do it, as he is openly confrontational with former customers of his products on his Facebook page.

crycocyon is right. Libel would be a logical presentation of fact that is blatantly false in an attempt to discredit or cause harm. For example, I'm in no danger of a lawsuit from Nabisco when I state that I believe Oreo cookies are gross.

Rick M is also right. These vultures earn their living by using their platform to promote themselves. There's nothing wrong with using our own available soapboxes to dissuade others from falling victim to their traps.
 
R

riverside

Senior Member
I'm very careful about anything I put in writing regarding any individual (or anything else). It isn't that difficult for one of the giant mass of US lawyers to prove libel in seeking damages for lost revenue and unless one has an umbrella or rider covering defamation/libel the standard homeowner's policy doesn't cover damage awards.
 
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
riverside said:
I'm very careful about anything I put in writing regarding any individual (or anything else). It isn't that difficult for one of the giant mass of US lawyers to prove libel in seeking damages for lost revenue and unless one has an umbrella or rider covering defamation/libel the standard homeowner's policy doesn't cover damage awards.
Click to expand...

I'm an insurance agent by day. I've got that covered.

Lost revenue? You poor, misguided soul. Let's use my convenient scapegoat Kenny as an example here.

I won't do him justice by linking to it, so you'll have to do some searching for yourself. On KR's site, you'll find a gallery of his mobile phone images. Most of it's just pics of his kids eating ice cream and stuff like that. Eventually, you'll stumble upon an innocent photo of Ken's wristwatch.

Do a Google search on that watch and get back to me on how you feel about his lost revenue.

For a guy who uses link clicks and donation requests to "support his growing family", ole Kenny is doing pretty well for himself.
 
J

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
It goes for any sales person. Look at the vacuum cleaner salesman that knocks door to door to sell their product, offering you a gift to show off there product and lure you in. You're amazed at what it can do and A percentage of you will buy it. Same goes with KW. If you believe a product will make you a better photographer. Then go ahead and buy it. It is you most of the time that makes the product work. Have you ever had a hair stylist cut and style your hair( when I had long hair), you pay for the job and the next day you couldn't get the same results?? Here's your sign!! They knew how to get the results and you didn't. Therefore you go back after a few weeks and do it again. Another view. Look at the workout programs. You watch the commercials and you think you are going to buy this product and solve your "weight problem". If you listen to the whole commercial it says with proper "dieting" and food consumption you can look this way, not just the product they are selling. But, some people will buy it anyway! I learned years ago not to get "suckered" in to these gimmicks. I learn by asking and trying things on my own. Not to listen to "Gurus" that know it all and want to make a "buck" for themselves.
 
Last edited:
Browncoat

Browncoat

Senior Member
We're all salesmen, Clay. All day long, no matter what walk of life we come from. Every day, almost every interaction, a sale is made. You're either selling someone a reason to do/buy something, or they're selling you a reason why they can't. I don't blame people who are just trying to make a buck. We all are. However, I think we all tend to think less of those who take advantage of others for personal gain.

The vacuum cleaner guys have to own one of those things themselves. Why? Because you can't effectively sell a product that you wouldn't use yourself. That's Sales 101. I can't form an opinion on hair stylists though, since I've been shaving my head for the last 10 years. Right, Jack?
 
J

Just-Clayton

Senior Member
Your right! Everyone is a salesman. I too keep my hair short. ( not as short as yours and Jacks) But, I cut my own to save that $12 dollars a month. I still go to my local barber to get it cut, just for the conversation not the cut. I just don't like the "brainwashers" that get you to believe you "need" the product.
 
R

riverside

Senior Member
Browncoat said:
I'm an insurance agent by day. I've got that covered.

Lost revenue? You poor, misguided soul. Let's use my convenient scapegoat Kenny as an example here.

I won't do him justice by linking to it, so you'll have to do some searching for yourself. On KR's site, you'll find a gallery of his mobile phone images. Most of it's just pics of his kids eating ice cream and stuff like that. Eventually, you'll stumble upon an innocent photo of Ken's wristwatch.

Do a Google search on that watch and get back to me on how you feel about his lost revenue.

For a guy who uses link clicks and donation requests to "support his growing family", ole Kenny is doing pretty well for himself.
Click to expand...

You're covered. Most individuals have no insurance to defend a civil lawsuit charging libel. I've seen Rockwell's blog and consider him someone making money from his efforts. It doesn't bother me. In my opinion anyone who depends on a blogger for any decision on any subject is in a beware the buyer real world scenario. Some things never change.
 
Waxed

Waxed

Senior Member
I know this is old, but I am new to photography. However:

He's a snake oil salesman, looking only to line his own pockets by peddling donations from hapless newbies who don't know good advice from bad.
Click to expand...

Just because you are new at something - it does not necessarily mean you will not be able to figure out good to bad advice.

- -

Ken Rockwell's site is often unavoidable - it ranked high in Google. And to be fair to the guy - a lot of it is fair advice. And you know - every single person who offers up opinions about anything [not limited to Photography] has detractors and supporters [as well neutrals]. Browncoat has posted up some strong opinions and is getting some criticism from me.

The thing is - it is noticeable there isn't actually much criticism of Rockwell's opnions/articles/arguments/advice - no. But, the attack is on the person and they somewhat common and ridiculous personal attacks. How are they of any use? Sure it better to point out what bad advice Rockwell is giving out rather than attacking the guy. How is attacking the person [Ad hominem attacks] of any use? How is simply stating Rockwell is bad without actually stating why? Why should anyone believe "Browncoat" about Ken Rockwell? Especially, as there is no reason given as to why Rock well is so wrong.

It is possible, and it is considered better, to attack someone's opinions/arguments than attacking the person [and far more uncomfortably his family]. If I have criticism of Rockwell, which I do regarding his looking down upon non Canon-Nikon lenses, then I would prefer attacking or disagreeing with the arguments rather than attacking the person.

Sorry for the rant. I just felt something had to be said... :p

P.S. I do not know who David Jay is - but the point still stands - why bother to attack the person only?
 
Last edited:
M

Mike D90

Senior Member
Waxed said:
I know this is old, but I am new to photography. However:



Just because you are new at something - it does not necessarily mean you will not be able to figure out good to bad advice.

- -

Ken Rockwell's site is often unavoidable - it ranked high in Google. And to be fair to the guy - a lot of it is fair advice. And you know - every single person who offers up opinions about anything [not limited to Photography] has detractors and supporters [as well neutrals]. Browncoat has posted up some strong opinions and is getting some criticism from me.

The thing is - it is noticeable there isn't actually much criticism of Rockwell's opnions/articles/arguments/advice - no. But, the attack is on the person and they somewhat common and ridiculous personal attacks. How are they of any use? Sure it better to point out what bad advice Rockwell is giving out rather than attacking the guy. How is attacking the person [Ad hominem attacks] of any use? How is simply stating Rockwell is bad without actually stating why? Why should anyone believe "Browncoat" about Ken Rockwell? Especially, as there is no reason given as to why Rock well is so wrong.

It is possible, and it is considered better, to attack someone's opinions/arguments than attacking the person [and far more uncomfortably his family]. If I have criticism of Rockwell, which I do regarding his looking down upon non Canon-Nikon lenses, then I would prefer attacking or disagreeing with the arguments rather than attacking the person.

Sorry for the rant. I just felt something had to be said... :p

P.S. I do not know who David Jay is - but the point still stands - why bother to attack the person only?
Click to expand...

I have not seen where Browncoat attacked Ken Rockwell personally. Some of Rockwell's opinion is right and some is wrong. What has been pointed out is the way in which Rockwell goes about offering that questionable advice, paying to have his website rated at the top of Google so he appears as a highly regarded source, and then asking for people's money "donations" in return for that advice and making it appear as though that is how he feeds his growing children.

It is not Ken Rockwell, it is Ken Rockwell's methods.
 
D

Dave_W

The Dude
I'd say most people disliking him more for his runaway hubris than his actual opinions. There are many other "celebrities" on the web, like Thom Hogan or Nasim Mansurov who will offer far more insightful advice without the need to exalt his own self worth. This, more than anything else is behind much of the criticism out there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top