Restricted shutter speeds when using flash?

zbrandt

New member
I'm still fairly new to DSLR, but so far I've gotten excellent results with my D3200. I just have the 18-55mm lens that came with the camera and recently picked up a AF-S DX VR 55-200mm G ED lens. Two types of photography I've always loved - macro and high speed / stop motion. However, I don't understand why my shutter speed is restricted to a max of 1/200 when using the built in flash, and apparently using an external flash unit will make no difference. Under what circumstances would I ever be able to use anything above 1/1000 without using a flash? (I prefer to mostly use a low ISO of 400 and below). Would a low-light lens make a difference or is the 1/4000 setting a useless feature?
 

eidian

Senior Member
When I read the manual, it said that 1/200 is the max speed available when using a flash. My understanding is that this is a result of the camera being "entry level". I think that this makes sense because most (I stress MOST) people who buy this camera aren't necessarily looking to do the specific type of photography that you're after.

I wouldn't call the 1/4000 setting useless because there are times when your light conditions change and you might not have time change your ISO quickly so using the Command Dial to adjust the shutter speed is fastest (if you leave all of the functions at default).

Out of curiosity, what are you taking pictures of with the flash at high speed?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
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singlerosa_RIP

Senior Member
You might be able to use 1/4000 if you're shooting in super-bright sunlight at ISO 6400 at f/2.8 (or something similar). What mode are you shooting in? (Auto, Manual, Aperture, Shutter). If you're shooting Auto, the flash will pop up if needed. In Manual, you control whether or not you use flash, but it's limited to the flash sync speed of your camera.

Why do you want to shoot that fast? Plus, when using flash, at 1/200 sec, the flash will freeze the motion (like a hummingbird's wings), so you don't need a fast shutter speed. Shutter speed controls ambient light. Aperture controls flash light. There are plenty of YouTube videos on flash photography (as well as exposure triangle) that can help you understand how to get the most out of your 3200.

Good luck.
 

zbrandt

New member
That limited to 1/200 flash speed sync specification wasn't listed by the store or promo ads on the Nikon site, and I had no idea that such a thing was even an issue with these types of DSLR cameras. I had to dig deep into the manual to find it. I was kinda pissed off at being so limited. I have a 5mp P&S from 10 years ago that will do 1/2000 in manual mode using the built in flash no problem. I can't see how I'd be able to use a shutter speed of 1/4000 with no flash, unless I point it at the sun - which is something I'm sure isn't recommended. The best I can get is 1/1250 and that's on an insanely bright and sunny day, of course I'm using an ISO under 400, and little to none exposure compensation. Unless there's a damn good technical explanation for this limitation on the shutter speed, I see it as an inexcusable design defect. I questioned Nikon directly about it but got nothing. However, the pictures I've taken so far totally blow away anything I ever got with any of my previous P&S type cameras, so I can kind of forgive this limitation. Some of them are freaking amazing. I'm not about to give up on it, but I'll be looking for a camera that will do high speed flash sync.

I like taking all kinds of fast-paced action shots. Anything with fast motion is going to be a problem in low light, or without a flash. Cars, fast moving machinery, water, animals in motion - especially birds. I crank up the ISO but even with the noise reduction on I'll still get noise, and that doesn't compensate for the low shutter speed. I've been using software to correct for lighting issues, but I can only go so far with that.

This is why I was wondering if using a low-light lens with around f/1.8 will allow me to use a faster shutter speed under (more or less) normal lighting conditions.

At present, the best I can get with my AF-S DX 18-55mm G VR is f/3.5. I very rarely use auto mode, or any of the other modes. I use manual mode for almost all my pictures, and when I'm using a tripod I'll sometimes do a full manual focus.
 
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First off Welcome to the forum

If you fill out your profile we can better answer any questions that you might have.
You can do that at http://nikonites.com/profile.php?do=editprofile

Some useful links
http://support.nikonusa.com/app/ans.../nikon-product-manuals-available-for-download
Nikon | Imaging Products | Digitutor


Your P&S camera was limiting the shutter speed also you just did not see it. Limiting the shutter speed with flash has always been done with all cameras and not just with Nikon. It is just the way it has to be done to time when the flash fires while the shutter is open. The flash duration is extremely short. Flash duration on the SB-700 can be as short as 1/40000 sec.
 

zbrandt

New member
Well then, it looks like it's good-bye D3200 and hello something like a D7100. :) I decided to go DSLR because I was tired of the limitations with point and shoot, then only to find limitations just as annoying. A thousand dollars worth of camera gear and the best high speed sync with a flash I can get is 1/200? Sorry, but to me that is not only insulting it's also unacceptable. I may not know all the photography terms or DSLR technology, but I know what I need and how to take a great picture with it. I was already beyond the D3200 before I even bought it, I just wish I had known that beforehand. :)
 

singlerosa_RIP

Senior Member
Here's a hummingbird shot with off-camera flash @ 1/250 sec. I should have shot at a slower SS to allow for more ambient light. But the flash "froze" the action. If you're shooting anything at night with flash, the last thing you want to do is shoot at 1/1000 (imho).

JFS_5585.jpg
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
Well then, it looks like it's good-bye D3200 and hello something like a D7100. :) I decided to go DSLR because I was tired of the limitations with point and shoot, then only to find limitations just as annoying. A thousand dollars worth of camera gear and the best high speed sync with a flash I can get is 1/200? Sorry, but to me that is not only insulting it's also unacceptable. I may not know all the photography terms or DSLR technology, but I know what I need and how to take a great picture with it. I was already beyond the D3200 before I even bought it, I just wish I had known that beforehand. :)
Frankly put, the problem is not your equipment, it's your lack of understanding.

Poster singlerosa is spot on with his assessment and you would do well to listen to what he's trying very hard to tell you.


.....
 

WayneF

Senior Member
It is a lack of understanding, but understandable, since the subject is not obvious - we were not born knowing. :)

The D3200 (and almost all Nikon DSLR models, and all current Nikon DSLR models) have a focal plane shutter. It is the best kind of shutter (expensive, but accurate, quartz crystal timing, dependable, long life)

The limit on the maximum shutter speed with flash (maximum sync speed) is NOT any arbitrary Nikon constraint on low end models. The expensive models do have slightly faster shutter mechanisms, but the focal plane shutter simply is not fully open at faster shutter speeds to allow flash. Faster with a flash will suffer dark banding on the picture.

It has always been that way, since the first 35mm Leica in 1925. However, 1/200 second is a lot faster now than before... Suck it up and be glad - The first Nikon F in 1959 was 1/60 second sync. Same reason, focal plane shutter.

See Four Flash Photography Basics we must know - Maximum Shutter Sync Speed for a description of the flash sync issue.

Also see Capability of flash units for high speed photography about how (in dim lighting) a Speedlight (any normal camera flash) can stop incredible motion, even at extremely slow shutter speeds. This is why they are called speedlights. Much is available, learn to use it.
 
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Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
It is a lack of understanding, but understandable, since the subject is not obvious - we were not born knowing. :)
Agreed. But he's also resisting perfectly reasonable and correct responses. None so blind as those who *refuse* to see?

THAT is the point of my prior post.
 

zbrandt

New member
Ok, I'll try it this way. I want to do high speed photography. For example, high speed machinery in operation and/or water in motion or waterfalls. I want to get a nice, clear, sharp, freeze of motion.

For equipment I have:

D3200 (Naturally)
AF-S DX VR 18-55mm f:3.5-5.6 G
AF-S DX VR 55-200mm f:4.5-5.6 G ED
Trigger Remote
Tripod
52mm Polarizing filter
52mm NC filter

For the machinery, I'll have standard factory illumination of fluorescent - in other words crappy lighting. Since water will most likely be outdoors the lighting will be variable, anything from cloudy overcast to bright sunny. Now, what settings do I use to achieve my desired goal? Shutter, aperture, ISO, focus mode, AF area mode, metering, flash, exposure compensation, or any other relevant setting. If I'm using a higher ISO would it be of any advantage to disable the Active Dynamic Lighting? (If I'm using the tripod I'll be using the remote with the VR off)
 

singlerosa_RIP

Senior Member
For the machinery, you need a speedlight. Your on-camera flash probalby won't cut it. Meter for the ambient light and put the flash on manual. Depending on how close you are to the machinery will determine on the power setting and zoom setting of the flash.

For waterfalls, flash won't work. Too much area to cover. If you want water in motion, you don't want to freeze it, you want to slow it down. For that, you need an ND filter. If you just want to freeze the water, you should be able to shoot at a fast enough SS in the daylight. Here's a shot with an ND filter shot at 13 sec, f/22, ISO 100.

water flowing.jpg

Here's another water shot (water droplet) shot at 1/180 sec, f/11, ISO 100 with flash.

water droplets-213.jpg

YouTube is flush with videos on photograph, including how to shoot with on and off camera flash. In addition to spending time filling out your profile and posting some pics in your gallery, maybe you should watch some videos or take a class somewhere. Good luck.
 

eidian

Senior Member
It looks like you got the Costco kit too based on your lenses. I think that you'd be happy if you get the 35 mm f/1.8 lens (the G lens). The kit lenses are very good for sure, but that 35 mm prime lens is really versatile. Also, look into an external flash...you won't regret the purchase of a good flash. I happened on an SB-800 and am loving the flash (even purchased a second one after owning my first one for a little over a week). I'm going to use is the two flashes as a Master/Slave combo since the feature is built into the flashes--our built-in flash doesn't have the Commander ability.

The D3200 is a great camera and have been really happy with it for the past three months. I'm learning every day with it and I'm enjoying the experience. I just realized that to get the results I want, I have to purchase the right upgrades. And since Nikon uses the F Mount system, I know that all of my DX lenses will work with the D7100 when I get it in a couple of years.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
 

FastGlass

Senior Member
The shutter in you're SLR is mechanical. The shutter in you're P/S is electronic which allows you to use such high shutter speeds. The 200th limit is pretty much universal with all cameras. Changing you're camera to the one you've mentioned is still going to have the limit on shuuter speed when using the flash. This issue you're upset about is for all of us common knowledge. If wanting to shoot at higher shutter speeds theres a thing called high speed sinc. You should look into why you can't use the settings you're choosing and get a better understanding on how the system works before getting upset about it. Knowledge is free for those who want to invest their time with it.
 

zbrandt

New member
The shutter in you're SLR is mechanical. The shutter in you're P/S is electronic which allows you to use such high shutter speeds. The 200th limit is pretty much universal with all cameras. Changing you're camera to the one you've mentioned is still going to have the limit on shuuter speed when using the flash. This issue you're upset about is for all of us common knowledge. If wanting to shoot at higher shutter speeds theres a thing called high speed sinc. You should look into why you can't use the settings you're choosing and get a better understanding on how the system works before getting upset about it. Knowledge is free for those who want to invest their time with it.

Thank You! That's the answer I was looking for. Now I understand the difference, mechanical and electronic. I understand very well about out of sync banding, like pointing my camera at a older CRT tv without being in sync to 60Hz. Some of my photographs will require using a higher shutter speed above 1/1500 and right up to 1/4000 with a flash. The D3200 will only do 1/200 and that's it, no matter what I use for a flash. I've tried, and all I got was a blurry mess of motion. It's not because I don't know how to set up and use my camera for this particular kind of photography. I was pissed because it seemed more like a ridiculous limitation, I mean why even bother with having a 1/4000 setting if it's basically useless. I was doing this kind of photography for years with P&S cameras that were far less expensive. Then I go to DSLR and even on the low end entry level kit still being a few hundred dollars more than my best P&S, suddenly I can no longer do the high speed stuff that I've always been able to do. But I guess it's like cable channel packages, you get 50 channels you never watch but still have to pay for them anyway. The D7100 will allow me to use High Speed Flash Sync up to 1/8000, so it is described in the manual, using a compatible SB speedlight. The built flash will only allow up to 1/320. I've already been looking at getting the SB-700 AF.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Be aware when planning to use Auto FP for so-called High Speed Sync (it becomes continuous light, there is no sync), it will require five SB-700 acting together to have a little more power than one SB-700 in regular flash mode.

Guide Numbers, for 24mm ISO 100 (from SB-700 manual, online)

Regular DX mode GN 91.9
Auto FP DX mode GN 42

Five FP has combined GN of 93.9
One Regular has GN of 91.9

See Four Flash Photography Basics we must know - Auto FP and HSS

There is much advantage to regular flash and 1/250 second sync (both speed and power)
 
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zbrandt

New member
Agreed. But he's also resisting perfectly reasonable and correct responses. None so blind as those who *refuse* to see?

THAT is the point of my prior post.

You mean like when relevant information is included, alternative questions asked, and then have it ignored for the sake of one's own personal agenda? Or being rude and obnoxious, like this little display of professional etiquette? I've seen better manners on the Cragislist Boston Rant&Rave. Excuse me, I have to go find where my local Costco is so I can buy stuff and be properly insulted for my choice of equipment.
 

sOnIc

Senior Member
Hi people, I'm in shock .. .. Just bought a D3200 after having a D50 for 8 years .. the D50 could do this, so why not my D3200?!
Here's a shot I did on the D50, at 500th of a second, looking into the sun; with a fill flash..:
http://www.flitemedia.com/images/wa...estival 2012 - Quantum Healing Temple (2).jpg
Fill flash is an obvious part of photography right, are you telling me that my new camera can't do this?
I'm also doing skateboarding photography where I want fill flash etc .. ..
I completely agree with everything zbrandt has said, I'm absolutely in shock ..
Have I got this right?
Thnx
 
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