Morality Question

Hey all. Just doing some thinking.

I am very new at photography (as in just started with a dslr in December) and I've taken several photos of friends, pets, walk around, etc.

I did a shoot for a friend of mine a couple months ago with 10 members of her family. But they came out okay in my opinion, but great in theirs (if you look at www.goodboyphotography.smugmug.com and click on the "Shipley" album, you'll see the shots from that day). This particular shoot they insisted on paying me $100. Which I hesitantly accepted (only because I was VERY short on cash that month).

Here's the dillemma: one of the girls from the shoot would like me to shoot her and her husband along with his younger brother and sister and dogs.

Should I charge and how much? I've never had any professional training, my camera and lens are basic and I've never been to any workshops. I went to the University of YouTube lol!

Thanks a lot!

Think about what your time is worth to you and come up with an hourly rate. One way to get a bearing on pricing is to base it on how many photos you plan to deliver, e.g. If you plan to provide them with 50 photos after an hour of shooting, the a cost of $2 or $3 per photo sounds fair.(you don't share this with clients . . . it's only to get a starting point, otherwise you'll have people asking you "oh, just take 5 photos and I'll pay you $10) So by paying you $100 or $150 for a 1 hour shoot (remember, there is also time spent on post processing), they'll be getting 50 photos. Prints and downloads are extra.

Hope this helps a little.

I think Helene is right on point. Remember it is not only your time you have invested there is equipment. In your profile it does not say which camera you are shooting but a D3100 kit costs $500 just to get the basics.
They have seen your work already and must be happy with your work or they would not have asked you to do work for them.

But remember, give them more than you promise them. Be there early, shoot all you can shoot and stay late. Make a name for yourself that you can be proud of.

Follow Helene's advice and you will not go wrong. This lady knows what she's talking about!

Hello LyonsH,

If I understand your concern:

If you think you're worth any money
with that kind of gear and experience…

…is not your concern at all. But of those who will take you as you
are and can appreciate what you do!

There are plenty of very qualified and well equipped "photographers"
everywhere but if they don't reach the sensibility of anybody, the will
not sell or be offered to be paid.

These people (just like me, Hélène and others that replied to your
"beach post") are reacting to what you are and what (and how) you
do with it…

These people did not (neither me, nor Hélène and nor the others that
replied to your "beach post") ever though dropping an eye on your gear
… or diploma!

Honestly, they want you to apply your vision to a part of their life… COOOL!
And they want to trade their pleasure against freedom. They are not offering
oil filters or whatever but money… and money, you may do as you please!

So, my question to you:
What could be immoral in wishing to acquire an artist's work?

For a half-day of shooting I'd normally get a fifth of good scotch and cartron of ciga... What?

Why is everyone looking at me like...

Oh... Uh... Yeah. What Helene said. Good advice there. And uh... Stay in school.

LyonsH said:

I've never had any professional training, my camera and lens are basic and I've never been to any workshops. I went to the University of YouTube lol!

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Irrelevant. It doesn't matter how you acquired your skills; all that matters is whether your skills and results are worthy of payment. And, after looking at your photos, I say Yes. I think you did a fine job and deserved payment. And more than $100 too.

just be grateful that they have enough class to upfront offer money,, laughs,, my friends and family JUST ASSUME that they get free photography. when my wife's boss tried to volunteer me to do her staff photos without offering compensation,, I put my foot down,, and just politely informed her that she could not afford me.

So, gladly accept the payment, and over time,,, work out a rate if you go in that direction,, but it is an expensive route, because soon equipment upgrades become a topic,, and it takes a lot of shoots to pay for the gear.

in the meantime,, enjoy,, and remember to breathe,,,

LyonsH,

A good place to start is to attempt to discover how much the shoot will cost you. Start with equipment: your camera has an expected life and an associated cost. Your vehicle has the same, as well as an ongoing cost of operation (gas, oil, fluids and maintenance.) How are you going to deliver the images? If prints, look at the total cost of prints, from the printer to ink and paper.

After you do this, you'll know how much it costs you to be a photographer. You certainly shouldn't expect lose money doing this for others.

Then, begin to determine how much your talent and time are worth. If they think enough to ask you to photograph them, don't sell yourself short in the deal. (Most people do.)

WM

LyonsH said:

Hey all. Just doing some thinking.

I am very new at photography (as in just started with a dslr in December) and I've taken several photos of friends, pets, walk around, etc.

I did a shoot for a friend of mine a couple months ago with 10 members of her family. But they came out okay in my opinion, but great in theirs (if you look at www.goodboyphotography.smugmug.com and click on the "Shipley" album, you'll see the shots from that day). This particular shoot they insisted on paying me $100. Which I hesitantly accepted (only because I was VERY short on cash that month).

Here's the dillemma: one of the girls from the shoot would like me to shoot her and her husband along with his younger brother and sister and dogs.

Should I charge and how much? I've never had any professional training, my camera and lens are basic and I've never been to any workshops. I went to the University of YouTube lol!

Thanks a lot!

Click to expand...

Tell them you were paid $100 for your last shoot. If they think that's fair, do this one for $100. Two paid sessions is the start of a professional portfolio and there's no better advertising than word of mouth recommendations. Nothing else even comes close. Get 4-5 under your belt, you've paid for your camera, gained a lot of experience, have a professional portfolio to sell from and can determine if photography for money is something you want to seriously pursue. That'll be the decision point of developing a business plan or continuing on a casual basis for always welcome extra cash.

I'm assuming you're currently passing on a CD or memory stick of images but not providing prints.

riverside said:

Tell them you were paid $100 for your last shoot. If they think that's fair, do this one for $100.

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I don't think that's good advice. What you were paid for the last job is irrelevant as each job is different and should be priced on its own terms. And you should never tell a client what someone else paid you. Again, each job is different. You need to evaluate and estimate and come up with a price. And you need to be confident when you tell the client what your price will be. No one wants to hire someone who isn't sure they are worth being paid the price they ask.

Serious answer: I'd tell them I shoot at, say, $50 an hour. It's quick, it's easy. Just say something along the lines of, "I'd love to do that for you, my usual fee is $50 an hour." Don't follow up with anything like, "If that's okay... ". State your hourly rate and leave it at that. They'll either take you up on it, or they won't. If you want to sell it, say, "My usual fee is $75 an hour but this one time, I'll do it for $50 an hour because I like you."

That's high enough to put a value on what you do and keep things on a professional level without sounding ridiculously expensive.

Thanks a million times over. I will take all of this into consideration. And I can't rule out a bottle of Jameson either LOL!

Well, Jameson is just fine. Cheers!

Did I hear Jameson!

Yes, come on in! We are celebrating a new artist!

jwstl said:

I don't think that's good advice. What you were paid for the last job is irrelevant as each job is different and should be priced on its own terms. And you should never tell a client what someone else paid you. Again, each job is different. You need to evaluate and estimate and come up with a price. And you need to be confident when you tell the client what your price will be. No one wants to hire someone who isn't sure they are worth being paid the price they ask.

Click to expand...

Her question was based on morality - should she charge them anything at all and if so how much. This session is people from the same group she did before, a family, who undoubtedly discussed how much she was paid when she didn't ask to be paid.

I agree each job is different but she states she doesn't have thousands of dollars tied up in equipment she needs to recover, photography isn't her primary vocation, she has limited photography experience and wants to take pictures. That means she's having fun doing it, so why risk losing a paid shoot she can use in a portfolio if she decides to follow that path by upping her initial price (which was actually a gratuity) on her second job? Or, if its the same extended family, 3rd, 4th or 5th shoot?

All the successful businesses I'm familiar with, including photography, follow formally defined business plans. If she decides she wants to pursue it as a business, that's the time to pin down costs and desired margins to develop a fee structure. For now, she should have fun and if she can pick up $100 a session and the all important experience doing it she's way ahead of most beginning amateurs I've ever known.

All good advice and ime sorry if this point has been stated and i have missed it,working for nothing may be good fun and an ego builder, if you are good and want to take on more work its going to be more difficult starting to charge at a later date.

mike

The only other tidbits of advice I have:

1. If you're going to start charging, you charge for EVERYONE except family. People talk and word will spread (the better your work the faster) and that you did it for free. Everyone will then expect you to work for them for free as well because you worked for so and so for free. If you *don't* charge everyone, then, ethically speaking, you really have to start to ask who are you screwing when you *do* charge for a job?

2. The hardest thing EVER is getting a client to start paying you for something they're accustomed to getting for free. This is one of the best ways to lose a client (and don't think for one minute your client does not know this, or think they will not use this to their advantage, consciously or unconsciously). You can discount someone, toss in a few spiffs to sweeten the deal, stretch the hour a little but... NO. FREE. WORK.

Everything else is negotiable in my book, except that. At some point, there is going to be some kind of fiscal compensation. Even if it's just $5, whatever. The point is to charge everyone, every time so you don't create an expectation of working for free.

I provide reduced images (same as I post online), and will create prints (with my markup as desired),,, I make it clear, that while the image is fine for social media, screen saver,,, don't even think of printing,, in that way,, you can keep control of the direction,,

then,, if the person insists on their own printing,, you say , fine, have a pre created rate chart for the print,, and since it is a one
time transfer it is not cheap,, it cost more money then if you just create the prints for them as it should be