At what point is it over kill for me?

E

eidian

Senior Member
I got a D3200 with a starter kit from Costco back in mid-May. It's a really nice kit but since getting it, I have purchased two more lenses and a flash.

The flash is an SB-50DX and I'm quite happy with it. I have taken what I think are good shots with the 50DX and an old 50 mm E Series lens in full manual (I only shoot in manual mode because it's all I know) . I'm only a casual hobbyist but I do have an appreciation for the art--but I'm not hard core.

I have done some reading on specs and am waiting for delivery on a new flash bracket/flash cord and a used SB-400. I picked the 400 because it has ttl and it's small.

Now I have started reading ABOUT these features and how they're used and I am fricken lost. I was reading a thread in here on ttl and gave up because it was WAY too technical. I just want to avoid red eyes, washed out faces, harsh shadows and have decent tone in my pictures--I don't expect professional results.

I love(d) my Canon AE-1 with my 50 mm and 70-210 zoom lenses with a flash that had some complicated looking knob that suggested f-stops. When using the flash on that camera I would set the camera on something like 60/8.2 with 400 ASA film (was that the correct terminology?) and would be happy with the results.

My question: As a casual photographer, do I need to delve into the technical aspects of flashes or can I be satisfied with the results in my ignorance?

Seriously, I've been really happy with the results that I've been getting with the old 50DX in full manual. So I think that I should be happy with the 400 and just tilting the flash while using an adjustable bracket (moves the flash 90* for portrait pics).

Thanks for your opinions/insight.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4 Beta
 
D

Don Kuykendall_RIP

RIP :(
As long as the flash bracket allows you to bounce the flash in portrait or landscape you will be happy with the flash. Not sure with the set up you have but you may need to go in program made in the camera to get the full benefit of the flash in the iTTL mode. The kit came with the 18-55 zoom? Stick it on there and put it in P and you should get some great shots.
 
Horoscope Fish

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
For avoiding red-eye and general "flash wash out" I suggest a couple things.

Suggestion 1: Buy this Omni Bounce diffuser for your SB-400 (link goes to Am-a-zon but buy where you wish). This will solve 99% of your woes. This works indoors, outdoors and there's no need for a wall or ceiling to "bounce" the light off of. Stick it on and you're good to go. I highly suggest you go this route, by the way.


Suggestion 2: Don't buy the highly suggested Omni Bounce diffuser conveniently linked above and instead wrap a coffee filter over the business end of your SB-400 and secure with tape or a rubber band or what have you.


Crash Course on TTL: It means the camera and flash unit work as a team to help ensure the amount of light the flash produces is correct for your photo by measuring how much total light is passing Through The Lens with each shot. It's not something you need to understand in detail. Just know it's something good to have, and the SB-400 has it.

With either diffuser you will not need the bracket or the cord. The SB-400 will attach to the hot-shoe on your camera and either diffuser option will take care of the wash-out/red eye problem. Try the coffee filter thing and see what I mean. Then, when you're convinced I'm right, splurge on the Omni Bounce.


...
 
Last edited:
M

MrF

Senior Member
Part of the beauty of iTTL is that you don't have to understand much about it at all if you don't want to. The camera fires preflashes before the shutter opens and measures the exposure and uses that to figure out on what power to fire the flash for the photo. You can actually see the preflashes if you set a long shutter speed (a few seconds) and rear curtain sync. They happen too fast to see otherwise. It doesn't matter if you're bouncing the flash, using a diffuser, etc. If you're bouncing it off a wall behind you for example, the camera will use the pre-flashes to figure out that it needs more power than if you were using direct flash. No need to calculate the distance or use guide numbers or anything.

As for avoiding red eye, moving the flash off-axis with your bracket should help quite a bit. For avoiding harsh shadows, bounce the flash or use one of Horoscope Fish's suggestions. There's a lot of good information out there on the interwebs too. If you're a fan of manual flash, check out The Strobist's blogspot page. Great work, and he explains everything he does very well.
 
Last edited:
W

WayneF

Senior Member
eidian said:
Now I have started reading ABOUT these features and how they're used and I am fricken lost. I was reading a thread in here on ttl and gave up because it was WAY too technical. I just want to avoid red eyes, washed out faces, harsh shadows and have decent tone in my pictures--I don't expect professional results.

I love(d) my Canon AE-1 with my 50 mm and 70-210 zoom lenses with a flash that had some complicated looking knob that suggested f-stops. When using the flash on that camera I would set the camera on something like 60/8.2 with 400 ASA film (was that the correct terminology?) and would be happy with the results.

My question: As a casual photographer, do I need to delve into the technical aspects of flashes or can I be satisfied with the results in my ignorance?

Seriously, I've been really happy with the results that I've been getting with the old 50DX in full manual. So I think that I should be happy with the 400 and just tilting the flash while using an adjustable bracket (moves the flash 90* for portrait pics).
Click to expand...

Since you have already learned to watch your results and adjust your flash power level for the result you want, then you already know more than many - you are virtually pro level. :)

Bounce flash solves many problems when it is possible (no red eye, no glare, less background falloff, more natural lighting, etc), but it does require more flash power, and neither the SB-50DX or SB-400 are full power flashes, which means their bounce could need more ISO speed to hang in there. As a rule however, you do NOT want Auto ISO for flash.. Indoors with flash, Auto ISO will always use maximum ISO (current camera models). Instead, set ISO to what you want to use.

You won't have any issues with TTL. The difference is:

Manual flash, you have to guess at a starting power level, say 1/4 power for example (about like last time in same situation), and then tweak it in for the result you want.

TTL meters a preflash and gets very much closer the first time. Often just about right, but we still have to watch and tweak a bit, sometimes. The thing to know is that Flash Compensation is the way this tweak is done. If you need a bit more TTL power than automation provides, add a little +EV Flash Compensation, results judged by eye. You won't have any trouble, and its first try will be pretty close. Once you get FC right for your ceiling situation, generally you can walk around the room shooting without much further consideration, TTL will continue metering and getting it right. TTL is wonderful stuff for varied situations - where manual flash is often the best thing for fixed situation (unvarying). Both modes need to be watched though.

With a full power flash, f/4 and ISO 400 bounce usually works, even on 10 or 12 foot ceilings. F/8 might almost work at full power on a ten foot ceiling, and f/5.6 normally works on 8 or 10 foot ceiling. But f/4 is a fairly failsafe value (for a full powered TTL flash), and keeps recycle times short. Also at lower power levels, it is a speedlight, extremely fast flash duration that stops motion. I suspect the lower SB-400 capability will need at least ISO 800 a lot of the time.

My notion is that many beginners seem to imagine the cameras job is to always get it right, and that they need not get involved, but of course, that does not always work. It is not a good understanding of the details that get messy.

The thing to know for TTL flash exposure is that Flash Compensation is the tool you use to adjust what the automation failed to get right. It will be pretty close, but not always perfect, until you help a little, sometimes.

And when the flash does not have sufficient power for the current situation and settings, watch for the three warning blinks of the Ready LED immediately after the shot. That tells you that you need wider aperture or higher ISO, for this situation.
 
Last edited:
W

Whiskeyman

Senior Member
Read about it, and then use it, to get a higher level of understanding of your flash and camera. Then repeat it over again.

There's a reason the cliche "Experience is the best teacher" is so commonplace.

WM
 
E

eidian

Senior Member
Tracsoft - Don Kuykendall said:
As long as the flash bracket allows you to bounce the flash in portrait or landscape you will be happy with the flash. Not sure with the set up you have but you may need to go in program made in the camera to get the full benefit of the flash in the iTTL mode. The kit came with the 18-55 zoom? Stick it on there and put it in P and you should get some great shots.
Click to expand...

Trac: Yes, the kit came with both a 18-55 and a 55-200. My thought is that I would probably be using the 400 with the 35 mm AF-S prime lens that I bought. I think that this will be the default lens for parties and for family shots at Disneyland, this way my wife can put the camera on full Auto/AF/VR when I hand the camera over to her. I'll throw on one of the zoom lenses when I want to take pics of a show or parade at D-land (we have annual passes so we go a lot).
 
E

eidian

Senior Member
Horoscope Fish said:
For avoiding red-eye and general "flash wash out" I suggest a couple things.

Suggestion 1: Buy this Omni Bounce diffuser for your SB-400 (link goes to Am-a-zon but buy where you wish). This will solve 99% of your woes. This works indoors, outdoors and there's no need for a wall or ceiling to "bounce" the light off of. Stick it on and you're good to go. I highly suggest you go this route, by the way.


Suggestion 2: Don't buy the highly suggested Omni Bounce diffuser conveniently linked above and instead wrap a coffee filter over the business end of your SB-400 and secure with tape or a rubber band or what have you.


Crash Course on TTL: It means the camera and flash unit work as a team to help ensure the amount of light the flash produces is correct for your photo by measuring how much total light is passing Through The Lens with each shot. It's not something you need to understand in detail. Just know it's something good to have, and the SB-400 has it.

With either diffuser you will not need the bracket or the cord. The SB-400 will attach to the hot-shoe on your camera and either diffuser option will take care of the wash-out/red eye problem. Try the coffee filter thing and see what I mean. Then, when you're convinced I'm right, splurge on the Omni Bounce.


...
Click to expand...

Fish: LOL! Thanks for the very convenient link. I don't know if you realize this but I'm the guy that had the question about flash brackets in the D3200 forum. I ordered that dome shaped difusser for the 50DX; I'm going to see if it can also fit on the 400. If not, I'll be getting the diffuser that you linked to. Thank you for quick explanation of ttl.

MrF said:
Part of the beauty of iTTL is that you don't have to understand much about it at all if you don't want to. The camera fires preflashes before the shutter opens and measures the exposure and uses that to figure out on what power to fire the flash for the photo. You can actually see the preflashes if you set a long shutter speed (a few seconds) and rear curtain sync. They happen too fast to see otherwise. It doesn't matter if you're bouncing the flash, using a diffuser, etc. If you're bouncing it off a wall behind you for example, the camera will use the pre-flashes to figure out that it needs more power than if you were using direct flash. No need to calculate the distance or use guide numbers or anything.

As for avoiding red eye, moving the flash off-axis with your bracket should help quite a bit. For avoiding harsh shadows, bounce the flash or use one of Horoscope Fish's suggestions. There's a lot of good information out there on the interwebs too. If you're a fan of manual flash, check out The Strobist's blogspot page. Great work, and he explains everything he does very well.
Click to expand...

Mrf: Thank you for reassurance, I feel good with your explanation because I feel like that's were I am right now (or pretty damn close). I'm gonna check out your suggestions.

WayneF said:
Since you have already learned to watch your results and adjust your flash power level for the result you want, then you already know more than many - you are virtually pro level. :)

Bounce flash solves many problems when it is possible (no red eye, no glare, less background falloff, more natural lighting, etc), but it does require more flash power, and neither the SB-50DX or SB-400 are full power flashes, which means their bounce could need more ISO speed to hang in there. As a rule however, you do NOT want Auto ISO for flash.. Indoors with flash, Auto ISO will always use maximum ISO (current camera models). Instead, set ISO to what you want to use.

You won't have any issues with TTL. The difference is:

Manual flash, you have to guess at a starting power level, say 1/4 power for example (about like last time in same situation), and then tweak it in for the result you want.

TTL meters a preflash and gets very much closer the first time. Often just about right, but we still have to watch and tweak a bit, sometimes. The thing to know is that Flash Compensation is the way this tweak is done. If you need a bit more TTL power than automation provides, add a little +EV Flash Compensation, results judged by eye. You won't have any trouble, and its first try will be pretty close. Once you get FC right for your ceiling situation, generally you can walk around the room shooting without much further consideration, TTL will continue metering and getting it right. TTL is wonderful stuff for varied situations - where manual flash is often the best thing for fixed situation (unvarying). Both modes need to be watched though.

With a full power flash, f/4 and ISO 400 bounce usually works, even on 10 or 12 foot ceilings. F/8 might almost work at full power on a ten foot ceiling, and f/5.6 normally works on 8 or 10 foot ceiling. But f/4 is a fairly failsafe value (for a full powered TTL flash), and keeps recycle times short. Also at lower power levels, it is a speedlight, extremely fast flash duration that stops motion. I suspect the lower SB-400 capability will need at least ISO 800 a lot of the time.

My notion is that many beginners seem to imagine the cameras job is to always get it right, and that they need not get involved, but of course, that does not always work. It is not a good understanding of the details that get messy.

The thing to know for TTL flash exposure is that Flash Compensation is the tool you use to adjust what the automation failed to get right. It will be pretty close, but not always perfect, until you help a little, sometimes.

And when the flash does not have sufficient power for the current situation and settings, watch for the three warning blinks of the Ready LED immediately after the shot. That tells you that you need wider aperture or higher ISO, for this situation.
Click to expand...

WayneF: Thank you so much for the detailed explanation in language that I could understand (that is no small feat). I'm taking away a lot from your advice. Everything that you said makes sense and I feel like I can tackle this part of the learning curve with yours and the help of everyone else.
 
Last edited:
E

eidian

Senior Member
John P said:
TTL is pretty good.
But I would still learn to use flashes manually.
Click to expand...

I have been using the SB-50DX with my 50 mm Series-E prime lense. That prime lens is old so there is absolutely no metering going on when I take pics with it. I've been practicing bokeh like a mo-fo and trying to learn ideal settings in all light situations when I can take my time (i.e. not taking family pics). This has been helping me re-learn settings.

Whiskeyman said:
Read about it, and then use it, to get a higher level of understanding of your flash and camera. Then repeat it over again.

There's a reason the cliche "Experience is the best teacher" is so commonplace.

WM
Click to expand...

I did try reading and I wasn't getting anywhere. I've realized that I can read every resource in the world but many times that isn't going to do crap for me. I'm not dumb (and I'm not implying that you said that I am), but reading is only going to take me so far...there's a point when I'm going to have to acquire skill by actually doing. That's why I asked how much I need to know.

I've found that trying after reading has helped me understand what was I trying to comprehend in print. This is how I have been learning about old mechanical watches, I read a page five times on "run to the banking" but it didn't sink in. It wasn't until I opened up a $5 watch, took out the balance wheel (destroying the balance spring in the process), and disassembled the Escapement Lever that I realized what the author was trying to explain. In this case, I did need to know how the Escapement Lever works in order to be able to fix it. But as Mrf pointed out, the beauty of ttl is "...that I don't have to understand it..." if I don't want to. I believe this to be true: it's a tool that I can use but I don't have to know how it does what it does--I only need to know what it does and how I can use it.
 
Last edited:
Top