Metering

Hi all,
I've just received my first Nikon and I'm having some difficulty with the metering for low light or night-time shoots. Even when in Manual mode, Matrix metering and varying all of the shooting parameters (aperture, shutter speed, ISO) my camera's meter is fluctuating quite badly, going from -2EV to +2EV and vice versa in a matter of seconds. It's almost impossible to guess the correct exposure.
I realise that such dark conditions will cause problems, but night-time shoots are now a lottery. I can't understand why, even in such conditions, the camera won't give me a stable reading on the meter. There's no light source which might affect the reading as I'm out in the countryside. Only the last rays of the sun or occasional starlight is there. This really is a newbie question but any help will be very much appreciated.

Cheers,
Chris

Just focus on your subject and get it properly exposed. If you're shooting stars and whatnot similar, long exposure will take care of things, for the most part. Read up on a few threads in the Learning section's Low Light and Night board.

What if you ignore when the camera says its to dark/bright, take some testshots and manually get the picture you want?

I've tried the same when photographing concerts, due to the lights and the big difference between bright and dark. I ignore whatever the camera says, and go for the setting I think it should be, and make my adjustments after what I see on the screen.

Maybe try to google something like, photographing sunsets? I once read a good article about a pretty much your problem (if I understands it right, and youre trying to get some of the sunset), but I think it was a danish article.

Either ignore or set it to spot metering and only pay heed when your focus dot is exactly on the subject.

Thanks for the quick replies. I appreciate that.
My metering is pretty much useless for night shots as it veers from under to overexposed so much. Focusing on a particular element of the scene or trying spot metering don't work either. I could try taking test shots and editing them in Lightroom, but I'm doing a time-lapse video so I need to get things as close to 0EV during the shoot, otherwise there is a lot of work to do in processing.
Even shooting a townscape with the street lamps providing, I think, enough light the meter is going all over the place. This is very frustrating as it is such a simple element of the whole thing: can you rely on your camera's meter at night? Can you use it to set the shutter speed?
As I wrote, this is my first Nikon (a Canon user usually) but my work has usually been of interiors and using Photoshop. I'm still trying to get my head round this.

Best,
Chris

Hm, sounds a little wierd. What about your focuspoints? Do you use only one?
And what about ISO? Is it auto? That could also be a factor.

About the test shot I meant, just watch the screen on your camera to see if its any good - not on your computer.

Chris70 said:

Thanks for the quick replies. I appreciate that.
My metering is pretty much useless for night shots as it veers from under to overexposed so much. Focusing on a particular element of the scene or trying spot metering don't work either. I could try taking test shots and editing them in Lightroom, but I'm doing a time-lapse video so I need to get things as close to 0EV during the shoot, otherwise there is a lot of work to do in processing.
Even shooting a townscape with the street lamps providing, I think, enough light the meter is going all over the place. This is very frustrating as it is such a simple element of the whole thing: can you rely on your camera's meter at night? Can you use it to set the shutter speed?
As I wrote, this is my first Nikon (a Canon user usually) but my work has usually been of interiors and using Photoshop. I'm still trying to get my head round this.

Best,
Chris

Click to expand...

This does sound odd... So let's clarify exactly how you're shooting and what's going on when you do. You're out in the countryside you say, so this sounds like you're shooting stills. Not, say, an outdoor concert or doing actual "street shooting" at night, correct? So if you mount your camera on a tripod, use ISO 200, Aperture Priority, Matrix Metering, set the aperture to, say F5.6 and frame a shot, the meter is going bonkers on you?


EDIT:

Further, are you actually GETTING bad shots, or are you just freaking out because the EV meter is fluctuating wildly while in Manual mode? You don't really say in your posts how your shots are turning out, or I'm not understanding you... But, my point here is, if you want to shoot in Manual mode, you can ignore the EV meter. Just shoot, chimp and adjust your settings (f/stop or shutter speed) accordingly.

I may have missed it BUT.
1. What are you shooting exactly?
2. Does is fluctuate when the camera is exactly still and the lighting is not changing?

Post a photo that was taken when the camera is fluctuating and post it along with the settings that it was using.

wud said:

Hm, sounds a little wierd. What about your focuspoints? Do you use only one?
And what about ISO? Is it auto? That could also be a factor.

About the test shot I meant, just watch the screen on your camera to see if its any good - not on your computer.

Click to expand...

"weird" is the word. I never shoot in Auto and so the focus is always on Manual and adjusted via the ring. ISO is always on Manual too. As I wrote, this is my first Nikon and other than this it is working well. It's just low light conditions that are putting the meter off. It's never at rest, one or two points on the meter I could handle, but its a huge difference in the exposure reading sometimes by 4EV. An individual picture would be easy to adjust, as you wrote, just look at the display. But as it's a time-lapse the photos are all interrelated. I'm either doing something so embarrassingly inept or the Nikon has a problem.

Best,
Ray

Hi,
Yes it's definitely odd. My old Canon G5 handled night exposures without any problem. Street shooting I tried simply to see how much light the camera could handle before the meter veers off (not much) but my shoot will be of the country. I should state that I don't shoot in AV mode as it's a time-lapse; yes, a lot of people do like to use this for night to day but I've found the results to be variable.
My shoot is as follows: I'm going out into the countryside with no light pollution and plan on shooting until c.30 minutes after sunset. All settings are in Manual mode, camera on tripod, intervalometer attached; the aperture is fully open (a necessity for time-lapse) and the sun is slowly setting. Meter readings are consistent throughout the day and don't fluctuate until the last rays of the sun are visible, then the meter goes haywire. I'm using LRTimelapse's Holy Grail method where you let the exposure shift 1EV prior to resetting the meter to 0EV. But how can I do this with a meter jumping wildly?
The results aren't 'bad' and can be easily adjusted in Lightroom or Camera Raw. No problem. But as each shot is connected to the whole shoot from start to finish it is important that my exposure is as good as I can get. Imagine 2000 photos getting progressively darker as the sun sets and the meter reading is fine, then as the sun goes down the meter is all over the place and suddenly a new raft of photos are actually lighter than those done before. I can get close by guessing the shutter speed during the shoot but, well, it affects the last 400 or so pictures following sunset.
Apologies for the lengthy email. I seem to be able to handle all the complexities of the time-lapse software and workflow without any problem, but something as simple as setting a meter to 0 is beyond me. Any advice is very welcome. I'm sure if many of the people on here were in situ they could sort this out.

Best,
Chris

Tracsoft - Don Kuykendall said:

I may have missed it BUT.
1. What are you shooting exactly?
2. Does is fluctuate when the camera is exactly still and the lighting is not changing?

Post a photo that was taken when the camera is fluctuating and post it along with the settings that it was using.

Click to expand...

Hi there,
As recent post:
1) a countryside scene with no light pollution.
2) the camera is on a tripod and is stable. When the sun is strong enough and even going from the strong light of midday to late evening the meter is stable. I can adjust exposure accordingly. At sunset, however, the low level of the light seems to be outwith the camera's range and it fluctuates wildly. A nigh-time shot with no light from the sun is similarly affected. Strange, as the light is at its most stable at night.
I could post a picture with the settings but it would look probably okay and salvageable. But as it's a time-lapse shoot the pictures are linked and have to get progressively darker. Mine look odd as the video gets darker and then suddenly veers to too light as I've slightly misjudged the exposure. This is the point during the shoot where I'm guessing the shutter speed. Trying AV might be the obvious choice but everything has to be manual.

Cheers,
Chris

Chris70 said:

Hi,
Yes it's definitely odd. My old Canon G5 handled night exposures without any problem. Street shooting I tried simply to see how much light the camera could handle before the meter veers off (not much) but my shoot will be of the country. I should state that I don't shoot in AV mode as it's a time-lapse; yes, a lot of people do like to use this for night to day but I've found the results to be variable.
My shoot is as follows: I'm going out into the countryside with no light pollution and plan on shooting until c.30 minutes after sunset. All settings are in Manual mode, camera on tripod, intervalometer attached; the aperture is fully open (a necessity for time-lapse) and the sun is slowly setting. Meter readings are consistent throughout the day and don't fluctuate until the last rays of the sun are visible, then the meter goes haywire. I'm using LRTimelapse's Holy Grail method where you let the exposure shift 1EV prior to resetting the meter to 0EV. But how can I do this with a meter jumping wildly?
The results aren't 'bad' and can be easily adjusted in Lightroom or Camera Raw. No problem. But as each shot is connected to the whole shoot from start to finish it is important that my exposure is as good as I can get. Imagine 2000 photos getting progressively darker as the sun sets and the meter reading is fine, then as the sun goes down the meter is all over the place and suddenly a new raft of photos are actually lighter than those done before. I can get close by guessing the shutter speed during the shoot but, well, it affects the last 400 or so pictures following sunset.
Apologies for the lengthy email. I seem to be able to handle all the complexities of the time-lapse software and workflow without any problem, but something as simple as setting a meter to 0 is beyond me. Any advice is very welcome. I'm sure if many of the people on here were in situ they could sort this out.

Best,
Chris

Click to expand...

I'm sorry Chris, and maybe it's just me, but I'm having trouble following what's going for you because your posts do not use specifics and sometimes your usage leaves me bewildered. For instance, the ISO setting does not have a "Manual" mode; do you mean to say you have turned off the ISO Sensitivity function and are using a specific ISO setting?

You say, "let the exposure shift 1EV prior to resetting the meter to 0EV. But how can I do this with a meter jumping wildly..." which makes no sense to me: a meter does get actively "set" since meters only display information. A function, or a menu option, requires a setting. I'm also confused how you "let the exposure shift" since exposure is the result of using a specific f/stop and shutter speed; I don't understand how it could... "shift". And how much is "1 EV"?

It almost sounds like you're trying to use the Exposure Compensation meter in the viewfinder as a a light meter while in Manual mode which really confuses me.

What about D-lighting? Just saw this thread: http://nikonites.com/d5100/12486-overexposure-problem.html#post133994

wud said:

What about D-lighting? Just saw this thread: http://nikonites.com/d5100/12486-overexposure-problem.html#post133994

Click to expand...

Yes, I thought about this and disabled it. No luck.

Horoscope Fish said:

I'm sorry Chris, and maybe it's just me, but I'm having trouble following what's going for you because your posts do not use specifics and sometimes your usage leaves me bewildered. For instance, the ISO setting does not have a "Manual" mode; do you mean to say you have turned off the ISO Sensitivity function and are using a specific ISO setting?

You say, "let the exposure shift 1EV prior to resetting the meter to 0EV. But how can I do this with a meter jumping wildly..." which makes no sense to me: a meter does get actively "set" since meters only display information. A function, or a menu option, requires a setting. I'm also confused how you "let the exposure shift" since exposure is the result of using a specific f/stop and shutter speed; I don't understand how it could... "shift". And how much is "1 EV"?

It almost sounds like you're trying to use the Exposure Compensation meter in the viewfinder as a a light meter while in Manual modewhich really confuses me.

Click to expand...

Hi,
Sorry for the doubtless overly garbled explanation. The ISO is set to 100 throughout the day and as the sun sets I initially increase the shutter speed and, if needful, increase the ISO. (I'm doing a time-lapse and have to change the exposure in the interval between shots.)
My own feeling is that your last point, "It almost sounds like you're trying to use the Exposure Compensation meter in the viewfinder as a a light meter while in Manual mode", is exactly what I'm doing. For night shoots it is unreliable and as it gets darker it cannot handle such low light, hence the meter jumping wildly.
In a perfect world I would shoot a few test shots and adjust exposure accordingly. Trust to my own eye. I can't do this for time-lapse where I have a short interval between each photo (usually c.5 seconds) to get the exposure correct. So, if I have a brief period to get a correct exposure in between shots and the meter in my viewfinder is unreliable, what can I do? I have a friend who suggested a light meter. Opinion seems divided on whether this is of any use for a landscape shoot.
I hope the above help clarify my problem?

Cheers,
Chris

Why do you increase the shutter speed as the light fades? Wouldn't you just leave the settings the same to show the light fading? If anything, slow the shutter speed to allow more light in?? I gotta say, I am really confused with what you are trying to achieve and how your going about it and I feel I am not the only one! How about shooting a problematic timelapse and let us see what is happening?

Chris70 said:

... My own feeling is that your last point, "It almost sounds like you're trying to use the Exposure Compensation meter in the viewfinder as a a light meter while in Manual mode", is exactly what I'm doing.

Click to expand...

First and foremost: Stop using the Exposure Compensation indicator as a light meter. That's NOT what it is and that's not what it's for.

Chris70 said:

So, if I have a brief period to get a correct exposure in between shots and the meter in my viewfinder is unreliable, what can I do?

Click to expand...

If your shots are only going to be five seconds apart the easy solution would be to use "A"perture Priority mode. Set your ISO to 100, set your aperture to f/8.0 or f/11 and look at the shutter speed as displayed in the viewfinder. If the shutter speed is too slow (I'd want to keep it at, or above, 1/60) then either sacrifice a little depth of field and open your shutter up a stop or two, or sacrifice the possibility of a little noise and up the ISO to 200 or 400. The key here is to have your ISO and aperture figured out because they're not going to change once you start taking your time-lapse shots. Once your settings are configured you're going to let your camera meter the shot for you. And it will; automatically. EVERY camera's light meter is designed to expose every shot as though the scene had precisely 18% grey so you'll HAVE equal exposure density automatically because that's what camera meters do. The Exposure Compensation function is there to help us over-ride this default metering to 18% grey by increasing or decreasing exposure by fractions of an f/stop (typically in 1/3 or 1/2-stop increments) but that's not what you want: You want equal exposure density across the board; so DON'T play with the EC function.

Lastly, yes, you could do this in "M"anual mode but dear gawd you'd have to apply reciprocity and that would mean a lot of unnecessary work and even then I"m not sure you would be able to nail the exact same exposure density with every shot. For a shot every five seconds I'd have to table it out ahead of time so when the time came I could just look at that and swap the settings without having to think about it.

Chris70 said:

I have a friend who suggested a light meter. Opinion seems divided on whether this is of any use for a landscape shoot. I hope the above help clarify my problem?

Click to expand...

The problem, it appears to me, is you are trying to use your Exposure Compensation indicator as a light meter.

I hope this helps. Try what I'm suggesting and if the results are not what you want, post a few pictures of the attempt and give us the settings used to take the shots (EXIF data if possible, but at a minimum f/stop, shutter speed, ISO, mode (A,P,S or M etc.)) and what is wrong with the shot from your perspective so we can guide, specifically, to where you want to go.

Cheers!

Epoc said:

Why do you increase the shutter speed as the light fades? Wouldn't you just leave the settings the same to show the light fading? If anything, slow the shutter speed to allow more light in?? I gotta say, I am really confused with what you are trying to achieve and how your going about it and I feel I am not the only one! How about shooting a problematic timelapse and let us see what is happening?

Click to expand...

Leaving the shutter speed for those last 10 minutes or so is what I'm planning to do. Again, apologies for making things more difficult than they really are: "increase the shutter speed" was my way of stating increasing the time of the shutter, i.e., slowing it down.

Best,
Ray

Horoscope Fish is right, that was also what I was talking about with my concert pictures. The Exposure Compensation indicator will see the very dark areas as a problem and therefore try to get you to make another setting.

At the middle of this page, the 2 images shows it very clear:

What is Exposure Compensation and when do I use it?


If I should do a timelapse, I think I would go out an evening before doing the timelapse and try the shutter speed myself, to get an idea of what it should be.

To wud and Horoscope Fish,
Thanks for bearing with me. I should state that the software dictates that I shoot in Manual mode and use the metering in the viewfinder. It does suggest Aperture Priority as an option, but a poor one. It is this limit that is causing the confusion. How, as the conditions change so markedly and you only have a short interval to adjust things in between shots, do you expose correctly?
I've gone through the software's manual and this problem of the metering in the viewfinder and low-light conditions seems to be something that can only be judged by a preview, perhaps on the LCD. A fraught way of doing things. Your suggestion, wud, of going out the night before and recording the time and exposure settings without trying to do this in the actual shoot is a very good one.
Again, thanks for your forbearance. I've spent years on Photoshop and minutes on the actual photographic process. As is clear. You've helped a lot. Thanks.

Cheers,
Chris