Auto is evil!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to get too wound up on this subject and I don't want to put people off from posting and asking questions. Here's my beef (or horse if you're in Europe) why, for the love of photography do people buy the most friggin expensive full frame camera with friggin expensive lens and friggin expensive cards and friggin expensive tripod and friggin expensive everything and then, and then, and then set that friggin expensive camera to auto?! It's a rhetorical question, I know the answer. C'mon on people, if you've got too much money then invest some of it in a decent photography course. Better still, get the hell out there and experiment with the different settings until you start to get an understanding. Even mucho better would be to do both! The thing is, I want to help out, I want to spend time discussing different techniques, helping solve problems etc, but when I find out that the person who was needing help hadn't even attempted to move the dial from auto, well then that's when I start to feel a little Dirty Harry coming on and want to hand out some heavy handed justice. You see, I've worked 20 odd years in this industry, it's a great industry and what stands out about it is that people are always happy to give advice, help out and assist. But when someone can't be arsed to even try something for themselves, to experiment with settings, to flip a dial or read the friggin instruction manual, well then I start to feel that someone is taking the mick, pulling a fast one or just plain abusing the experience of others. This is a forum, this is a two way street, this is an equal exchange of ideas, concepts and knowledge. This is not a free school, this is not a free education, there's no such thing as a free lunch. There are people here who have spent long hours getting to the level that they're at, it shouldn't be assumed that it's to be freely tapped into in place of gaining your own experience. So here's the deal, help yourself first, try a couple of things, remember that that "auto" is "evil" and that if you set your camera to "auto" you will most likely spend an eternity in hell with a camera that doesn't focus and a kid that doesn't sit still. When asking for advice, tell us what you've tried to do to remedy the problem. When purchasing your camera don't dare think that the more expensive one you purchase will make you a better photographer, it won't! The moment you get more wrapped up in the gear than you do in the use of it, is the moment you might as well sell it (there is nothing more mind numbing and death inducing than a person who can tell you all the technical facts about the camera and lens but has no creative clue). Finally, if you have the budget for a D800 but have never taken a real photograph then why not consider the D600 or D7000 and use the money you save on a decent photography course? To all those who get out there and mess with settings, click dials and read the instruction manual, then I'm as happy as Barney to help.

That's the $64,000 question right there. And you can add to it the debate of JPEG vs. RAW on an incredibly expensive camera. Why spend that kind of money if you're not interested in squeezing out the very best image you possibly can?

On the positive side, a good percentage of these people will be so enamored with their photography that they'll take it to the next level and start reading up on the subject. And once they do, they're hooked!

Yeah, because the D600 and D7000 are for people who use Auto!!!

:beaten:

I know what you are trying to say, but who the hell are you thinking you can tell how other people spend their money? I don't care if someone buys a D4 and sits it on a shelf in his living room to look pretty. It's their money. By your logic we should all be using manual focus cameras without built-in metering and use a sekonic or use the guideline of 'sunny day: 1/125s, f8'. Fact of the matter is technology has progressed since full manual cameras, and not because auto is evil. Unless you turn off AF and run on M full time while completely ignoring all information and suggestions displayed in the view finder, you are always using some sort of auto.

I also don't understand why you are ranting in here, as the D800 doesn't even have a (green dummy mode) full auto setting - unless you consider anything other than M to be full auto.

I would hope that someone wanting to get into dSLR photography would make an effort to know their tool and understand the principle of photography and not remain stuck in the P&S style just with a bigger more expensive camera. But even if they do learn and they want to spend big $$ of some really nice equipment, that still doesn't mean everybody can or ever will be able to create national geographic quality photos. Nor does everybody want to, or even have the time to practice that much to get there.

Cameras do not define skill level. But skill level does also not define which camera one can buy. Your reasoning is pretty arrogant. Not everyone enjoying a D800 is a pro or wants to be a pro. Live with it. If you want to live in M mode 100% of the time, all the power to you. Others like to use the tools provided by modern technology. But that doesn't necessarily mean they don't understand how it works or think about what they want to achieve.

The fact that someone asks a questions is an indication they are willing to learn something. Unfortunately, beginner questions are always tedious to those with lots of experience. If you can't deal with that (I know I have a problem with that in my field of work (IT)), let it be and focus to more advanced questions.

Don't take the bait...

Whoa there Throttlemeister. My post has nothing to do with prescribing which camera someone should own, it has nothing to do with if someone should use their camera on auto or not (except, granted, in the title). I'm simply stating that if you're going to ask for some advice then at least, first, experiment for yourself to finding a solution by taking the camera out of auto mode. Some people post some pretty complex questions that go to the very heart of understanding photography basics yet they themselves aren't willing to click the camera off auto to find an answer, in my book that just seems pretty lazy and riding on the back of other peoples hard learned knowledge, a better term would be leeching. I'm happy to help out anyone with advice if they've tried discovering the answers for themselves and NO, beginners questions aren't tedious. People who want to spend their time on auto, then good luck to them, no skin off by back. Now with regards to camera ownership, I'm only suggesting one might think of going for a D600 or D7000 over a D800 and then invest the money they've saved in a good beginners photography course. Personally I don't get the point of someone going for the top of the range cameras and lenses to then keep them on auto, of course they have a right to do that, but I just think they're missing out on the potential of the camera and the experience of real photography. (Why do some people get their noses out of joint when people mention the D600 and D7000? Does it seem such a massive step down? It's not, we use both cameras on projects for our clients and the results are always superb). I have two kids, I spend my life getting them to find their own answers, find their own way, to ask questions, to learn and to experience... never to sit on their arses and expect the world to hand it out for free.

Thanks for adding to the debate.

Here we go. I'm pulling up a chair...

I have to agree about auto if for no other reason than what it does to ISO. I think it carries it up to high for normal shooting. P, A, and S are a different story. There are good reason to use those and you still have control over what you are doing. The difference is that you are using the expensive camera to do what you paid for and that is the expensive electronics that know what setting are best (with our input that is)

From what I've experienced, the problem comes more from ignorance than being too lazy to learn the camera. I work in an electronics store and see this all the time. I once had a customer looking at printers and in the course of talking to her, learned she likes to take pictures. She was using a D5000 but said she was considering buying a D800 because, in her words, "a lady that shoots basketball at my son's school uses a D700 and has amazing looking pictures." As nicely as I could, I had to explain to her that the D5000 and the D800 both have the capability to get very similar looking images and that before she invests $3000 in a camera, she might want to check out a few photography workshops. This same ignorance unfortunately translates to several areas in the technology world. This is why so much money is spent on product placement in TV and film. After all, if James Bond can do all his super spy work with a Sony Vaio, it must be an awesome computer right? (Sony 007 Edition Vaio TX Series Notebook | Bond Lifestyle).

That being said, I do agree with Dave that a good percentage of people who buy any type of DSLR generally do look to at least learn a little beyond automatic. If they don't seek to learn themselves, I find most people are at least willing to listen to advice and suggestions of good resources to improve their photography.

And yes, which camera a person decides upon or how much they spend on it isn't the big focus of the issue. What is more important is that as a photographic community we seek to encourage people to get involved in the art of photography and (as patiently as possible) help guide them in the right direction whenever we can. Remember that we all needed help (and in my case, still do) with our stupid questions and mistakes at one point or another.

Incubate said:

***Edited*** why, for the love of photography do people buy the most friggin expensive full frame camera with friggin expensive lens and friggin expensive cards and friggin expensive tripod and friggin expensive everything and then, and then, and then set that friggin expensive camera to auto?! It's a rhetorical question, I know the answer. C'mon on people, if you've got too much money then invest some of it in a decent photography course.

Finally, if you have the budget for a D800 but have never taken a real photograph then why not consider the D600 or D7000 and use the money you save on a decent photography course? To all those who get out there and mess with settings, click dials and read the instruction manual, then I'm as happy as Barney to help.

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Please allow me to answer this since it might pertain to me as well since you have described most of the things on your post about my situation.

I do have some expensive lenses, tripods, cameras, D800 and have not attended any formal photography courses. I use some of the "auto" features such as auto ISO, S and A mode since lighting sometimes varies especially if you are outdoor.

I started my photography hobby back in 2007 with my D80. I don't know anything about cameras then and since it had great reviews at that time, I ordered it instead of a D40. Was that a smart move? I think so, because later on, I was able to use the Nikon "D" lenses in "auto" focus.

Fast forward after 3 years, I purchased my D700. Still have not attended any formal photography courses. Was that a bad decision or move should I just buy a D300 or D300s and save some of my cash? I know my answer to that question. I'll buy a full frame anytime!

Fast forward after 3 years and spending more on these so called lenses, D800E, tripods, ballheads, camera bags, lens support, lens filters, and faster and more expensive memory cards, was that a bad move to spend on these hobby that doesn't even allow me to earn money?

Like what the others have already commented, why worry on how other people spend their money? Is it expected that before other people buys a Mercedez benz or BMW, that they should know how to drive a stick shift first? Should they just buy a Toyota Camry instead? Do we require them to go and hire a professional driving instructor first before they buy a more expensive car? Why is it any different when it comes to camera?

I have been in the Military for over 23 years now and I have been stationed overseas where I am not fortunate enough to be in a nearby professional photographer that can teach me how to become a better photographer. I think I have the right to spend my own money, however it pleases me and I think I am entitled to that. If I want to use my camera in Auto, so what? What's the big deal? Although "P" mode is the closest. It's my equipment, my money and my choice. Just my two cents or yen, however you want to call it.

I have honestly asked myself that question many times. I cut my photography "teeth" in the early '70's when you had a choice of all manual cameras or all manual cameras. To be successful at photography, you had to have a good working knowledge of shutter speed/aperture relationships, exposure adjustment from metered exposure (because camera meters were rather unsophisticated compared to day) and light. There were no such things as computers, at least not PC's. No image graphics programs and you had to work within the limitations of the film you were using. I studied and worked very hard to become proficient at Ansel Adams' Zone System and use it to this day.

I have, for the most part, stayed true to those concepts. I have a D700 which I don't know what most of the buttons do because I don't need them. Same goes for the menu items. All of my lenses are manual focus AIS Nikkors and I doubt I will ever get an autofocus lens. My D700, for all practical purposes, is nothing more to me than a digital F2 . It stays in manual about 99% of the time. As does my F4S. My Hasselblad 500CM is fully manual and it does not even have a meter in the NC-2 eye level finder. I use hand held meters pretty much all the time.

I don't look down on people who use the auto-everything button but it is just not for me. Different strokes for different folks. I just don't want to relinquish control over the photographic process to a machine which does not have a clue what I want to do with an image.

STM said:

I don't look down on people who use the auto-everything button but it is just not for me. Different strokes for different folks. I just don't want to relinquish control over the photographic process to a machine which does not have a clue what I want to do with an image.

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I admire your preference in staying with MF lenses. This is something that I wouldn't dare doing for a long period of time especially with my family who are very impatient when it comes to taking their pictures. This is even more challenging when you are shooting sports. Not everybody has a good eyesight and sometimes you just have to rely on the camera's Auto Focusing system to do the focusing for you.

My question to the OP is that who sets the standard or requirement that a photographer must or should attend a photography class? Is it implied that you are a less capable photographer if you did not get any formal training? If not, what is the point of this thread? Maybe I just don't understand the main point.

Photo classes are great for those who have the chance to go to them. I think everyone could benefit form them. It is not necessary to take classes though to become a great photographer.

I recommend any DSLR that allows metering of old glass, which thank (fill in what you believe or not), NIKON has many models that do.

Hard to judge from film antiques like myself, that well, when my autofocus was broken on my D700,, it took two months for me to realize.

I will say that I am now using auto focus more and more, but still in single point mode, moving the point around.

and of course, I will argue that there are times that AUTO makes most sense, for quick changing situations where one risks missing a shot.

I shoot for the subject first, but do enjoy the mechanics of the process.

gqtuazon said:

I admire your preference in staying with MF lenses. This is something that I wouldn't dare doing for a long period of time especially with my family who are very impatient when it comes to taking their pictures. This is even more challenging when you are shooting sports. Not everybody has a good eyesight and sometimes you just have to rely on the camera's Auto Focusing system to do the focusing for you.

My question to the OP is that who sets the standard or requirement that a photographer must or should attend a photography class? Is it implied that you are a less capable photographer if you did not get any formal training? If not, what is the point of this thread? Maybe I just don't understand the main point.

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When all you have ever used are manual focus lenses, it just becomes second nature. Using an autofocus lens would feel very unnatural for me. And especially with a camera which has a screen designed with autofocus in mind. The focus could be on the nose of a person when you need to focus on the eyes. This is especially critical for me because I prefer to use longer focal length/wide apertures combinations for portraiture. You would never see that focus error in the viewfinder but it would be painfully obvious when the image is viewed critically in PS or on the enlarger easel/print.

As for formal training, I am pretty much entirely self taught. And at the risk of tooting my own horn, I think I have risen to a pretty high level of competency. Long before there was ever an internet, there were books and magazines. I taught myself darkroom work, both color and black and white. I taught myself Ansel Adams' Zone System and principles of composition. My learning curve was rather steep and it took a lot of film, paper and chemicals to get to a high level. It is not the path I would recommend, but with the availablility of online courses and forums like this combined with the fact that digital has essentially eliminated the darkroom for those who choose that path, and gives essentially instant feedback, there is no need. Now I do subscribe to the school of thought that when someone takes a basic photography course which includes black and white darkroom work, it will definitely make them a better photographer with a more extensive intra-cranial database when it comes to the basics of exposure, depth of field, contast, exposure relationships, etc.

My turn. Only one of my cameras has "Auto" the D7000 - do I use, sure I do - for the same reason that I use "Manual" on my D4. I use just about every setting on my cameras - what ever works best at the time. Example the other night I was at a company function I took the D7000 set on Auto because I wanted to enjoy myself and not be fiddling with my gear. I am out with my D4 shooting eagles settings are 'S" or "A" auto white balance, and sometimes auto Iso. Next landscape with the D800 on a tripod "manual setting" auto white balance. My D700 goes with me everywhere it's set on "P" auto ISo Auto White balance ready to go in a heartbeat. So you see I use whatever suits the occasion. Now some folks are content to use their gear in one setting or another exclusively, fine it's their gear The other day I was at a function where there was a "Photo booth" setup a young kid had a Nikon D70 setup with an 18-70 lens and a couple umbrellas and off camera flashes. The camera was preset for him by his boss . He had no idea about any other setting than what he was using. Didn't matter to him that's the conditions he always shot in. It was what made his boss money and that was that.

I tend to fluctuate back and forth, from Manual to Program Mode....all depending on the situation I'm in, and the subject matter. Most of the time, outdoors, I'm in Aperture Mode when taking simple pictures. Fast moving sports events, I'm in Shutter Priority Mode. Hey....the camera has the settings......I use them! I, too, "cut my teeth" using a manual film camera. I never did dark room stuff because of the chemicals involved (hate the smell), but I still had to learn all the facets of photography the "manual" way. Had no choice! Now I have a choice.

fotojack said:

I never did dark room stuff because of the chemicals involved (hate the smell)

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"I love the smell of stop-bath in the morning!"

Interesting post, I have met photographers in the field with $3000 bodies and $8000 lenses are there pictures are no better than my D50 80-400VR setup. Why, they don't take the time to learn the equipment that they have.

Jeez! To the persons who think I'm bothered about which camera they buy, use or dangle around their neck... I don't care. Honestly, if you want to take kids party pics with a Hasselblad, knock yourselves out. I don't care if you even want use the freaking Hubble telescope to get pictures of aunt Edna's flabby arms waving at bingo. The point was really quite simple, if you're going to get top of the range and set everything to auto, then don't get too precious when people like moi get a little ruffled and miffed when you want advice but can't be arsed to even try something for yourselves. To those who do attempt finding their own answer first but to no avail, then good on yer, I'm marvelously happy to help out. Man, having an opinion is a dangerous thing sometimes. Perhaps I should change the title to "Being a lazy arsed git who can't be bothered to even try to find his/her own answer even though they purchased the top of the range camera which they have permanently welded to auto, whilst wanting free advice from those who have spent their own time and money actually discovering things for themselves."

Hmmm, it does have a certain flow to it!

And for any who want to take this too seriously... don't because I'm not