Forum Suggestion

Fen

New member
Oooooh now that's a good one... What do you define as Fine Art tough?

I was at a photographic discussion type thing as couple of months ago and the guy giving the talk was an internationally acclaimed fine art photographer, I didn't really like his work, but it was a really interesting talk and got talking to him after the event. During our chat we got talking about just what is fine art. Seeing that I had a portfolio with me (I'd been to visit a potential client earlier in the day) he asked to see my work. He went through my images pulling out ones that he considered fine art.

He didn't pick any of the flower images (like the ones I uploaded in the gallery earlier) but picked out some of the darker images like these:


Crime Noir Subway 2 by Fen Oswin, on Flickr



The Stalker 2 by Fen Oswin, on Flickr


So... What is Fine Art?
 

ohkphoto

Snow White
I agree that it's tough to define and I've always thought that it wasn't really good photography . . . kind of weird stuff, until I started reading this book about portrait photography by Roswell Angier ("Train Your Gaze"). He analyzes a lot of photographs which at first glance you would think are "crap" (at least I did), but then you begin to see that the "crap" is pretty deliberate --things like "rhyme" and "marginalization" --some of it is staged and some of it documentary (the "decisive moment"). Perhaps it has to do with vision and intentionally and deliberately translating it into a photograph (and letting the rest of the world try to guess what your message is, because the world loves a puzzle and mystery). How do we see the world we photograph and how do we share that with the viewers of our photos.

I don't think it always has to be "dark and morose" and I certainly think it can still be good photography by all standards --I think there are "photographers" out there who explain poor technique as "artistic vision".

Regarding your photos, I think it's interesting that this photographer picked out the "dark" photos. So he saw something in them, maybe. Did he explain why he considered them "fine art". But a better question is maybe, what did you see that made you want to make that photo? I think it would be really fun to analyze the second one with the man in the subway. Possibly all kinds of "hidden meanings"

I sure don't have the answer, but I do feel that all of us as photographers are drawn to photograph certain things, and it's a way of sharing ourselves with the world.

Great discussion, Fen!
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
Personally, I think any art-related forum would just set the stage for flame wars and heated discussions.

Art is subjective...ask 100 people how they define art, and you'll get 100 different answers. We do have the General Photography forum, which is where a few of these types of threads have already been posted.
 

ohkphoto

Snow White
Personally, I think any art-related forum would just set the stage for flame wars and heated discussions.

.

I think if any discussion results in "flame wars" its just a real sign of immaturity of those involved.

Frankly, "general photography" just doesn't cut it for me. I like the people on this forum, but unless it evolves rather quickly, it's going to stagnate and members will go elsewhere. There have already been comments about how "nothing much" is happening (because people are looking at the topics and seeing a long list of Nikon cameras that don't necessarily apply to them, and the most important, photography, lumped as one listing) and I hate to see that because I think this site has potential.

My opinion is that the general photography category should be subdivided into areas such as, entry level (how many people come here and need serious beginner help not just with their cameras, but with photography in general, and not feel stupid about it), portraiture (studio and environmental -- use of lighting), wildlife photography, landscape photography, etc. All of these have specific techniques.

Other categories could be printing, print competitions, wedding and event, freelancing and commercial (yes, there should be a place where those who call themselves "professional" can feel welcome to discuss the business end of it and other issues --the key word here is WELCOME). There are categories that could be added rather quickly to give visitors to the forum the impression that there is a lot going on. Right now on this forum, it appears that owning a Nikon is the ends rather than a "means to the ends", the "ends" being photography. There could even be a category for "snapshooters" -- not everyone who owns a Nikon wants to be an artist/photographer --they just want to record or document the special moments.

And yes, fine art photography should be one. I'm finding myself spending more time on a photo forum that has specifically that topic (among other really interesting ones including camera specific ones) described as "Photography as a visual artform open to any serious picture, where photography is the mode of our expression" There's even a topic called art theory and ideas with the description:
Warning, not the truth here, just a venture. Examining what makes an image worthy of saving and what it does for us. Apparently they're not afraid of "flame wars." and this IS a forum for photographers.

I'm not saying we have to be exactly like them, but there is a real need for growth and diversity here. Those photographers who want to talk about art in photography, should have a place here, just like those who don't want to, and like I said, "general photography" doesn't cover it.

I would like to be a part of this community and these suggestions are put forward with a kind heart and good will. I want to grow in my craft, and I want my experience here to reflect that. A forum is only as good as its community of members.

Just my humble opinion. But then, it's not my playground, and I guess if my feedback is not welcome, somebody will tell me to "take my toys" and go elsewhere.

Best Regards
 

fotojack

Senior Member
Helene, you make some very valid points, and if it was my web site, I'd certainly take you up on a majority of your suggestions. However, it isn't, so I will have to leave that decision to jdeg. Your feedback IS certainly welcome, so don't you DARE take your toys and go elsewhere! :) You're a valued member of this forum, and helpful suggestions and critique are always welcome. Having said that, don't expect all this to happen overnight. A website, I'm sure you're aware, takes time to evolve and implement, so bear with us and become part of the changes yet to happen.

Best Regards :)
 

ohkphoto

Snow White
A website, I'm sure you're aware, takes time to evolve and implement, so bear with us and become part of the changes yet to happen.

Best Regards :)

Hi, Fotojack, and thank you for your words. You're a prime example of why I love this forum . . . just really super people. I do realize how much is involved in a website of this caliber and I am certainly not giving up on this site. I am happy to be a part of this evolution. (and thank you for making me feel welcome in your "playground" :)
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
I disagree that the site will become stagnant without expanding into more photography/art related sections. This is a Nikon forum. Yes, we're photographers so those types of discussions will always take place here. And I'm sure more discussions along those lines would be welcome, even without a specific forum to put them in.

When you start making a bunch of new categories and sub-categories, things get confusing. Information gets lost and shuffled around, and people get frustrated when they can't find the types of threads they're looking for. If everyone used the tagging system and search features provided, it might be easier, but most don't. In a nutshell, this is a young site that will continue to grow. I'm amazed by the growth just in the short time I've been here. Jdeg has done a great job, and will continue to make adjustments as Nikonites grows and moves forward.
 

ohkphoto

Snow White
Jdeg has done a great job, and will continue to make adjustments as Nikonites grows and moves forward.

This is the only statement I agree with. JDEG has done a great job (and continues to do so) and if you read otherwise in my suggestions, then you missed the whole gist of my post.

So we can agree to disagree philosophically, and fortunately, neither one of us will make the decision as to what is or is not included in this forum.
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
On the contrary, I do agree with you philosophically. Just not practically. ;)

As I said, those types of discussions would certainly be welcome here. Just because there aren't specific categories doesn't mean that topics along those lines can't be started.
 
I see your points Helene, and they are very valid, and have a lot of merit. However, from the experience I have in founding two forums, and building them from the ground up, I realize the temptations and what works.

If there are too many categories or forums, information does tend to get diluted - and new members, the people who will eventually determine the success of the forum, might get too confused and give up. Personally, I would do some things differently here, but I believe that jdeg is doing a wonderful job. I've found that the greatest success leads to the most work for the moderators. We (my other board mods and admins) look for trends in the threads, and when there are enough threads on a particular subject, we create a new forum and move all the threads in the new forum.

For instance, if I were to see 25-30 threads on "landscape" style (sunset, open space, etc.) images, I'd probably add a "landscape" forum - and build out in a slow, methodical manner.

-Gregory
 

ohkphoto

Snow White
We (my other board mods and admins) look for trends in the threads, and when there are enough threads on a particular subject, we create a new forum and move all the threads in the new forum.

For instance, if I were to see 25-30 threads on "landscape" style (sunset, open space, etc.) images, I'd probably add a "landscape" forum - and build out in a slow, methodical manner.

-Gregory

Now this makes absolutely perfect sense. Thanks, Greg.
 

jdeg

^ broke something
Staff member
Thanks for the kind words everyone.

Unfortunately the concept of 'build it and they will come' doesn't work the same way for forums most of the time. It's more of the opposite actually. When a need arises for forums like this, threads can be moved from general forums into specific forums. I do like the idea though, and I would like to expand into more specific forums in the near future.
 

cookstarcarolyn

New member
I have two suggestions...I think that there is alot of talent on this site..but lack of comments on their photos..just think it would be nice to see some more comments on fellow photographers pictures.. It would help everyone who uploads to get some advice on how to improve if need be...or to let them know their pictures are AMAZING. I would also like to see some more contests..perhaps once a month? It gives us all some incentive to be the best we can be with our cameras:)

Carolyn
 

Curt

Senior Member
I guess I agree with both points of view. I can see having a fine arts area as being very interesting. I think Helene is right; people that are not interested in that topic will most likely stay away from those threads. But I also agree that too many sub categories sometimes gets confusing. I like to do a fair amount of photography that I feels falls under the heading of art?? Not sure that it is, but it is true a 100 different people will give you a 100 different answers as to what is considered fine art…lol. I love this site and I too have seen a lot of growth, even in myself. There are a lot of great people on this site, most very helpful in one way or another. I have grown myself picking up tid bids of very useful information from many very experienced members. I guess what I am saying is I to think it will all come to pass with time, like a child this site will experience growing pains, but grow up to be even greater then it is now. I tip my hat to everyone that is involved in this site; I love all the great photography (in the galleries). I think we all learn just taking a look at each other’s work. It invokes ideas, it inspires, it pushes others to strive for better. Just my two cents, what do I know?….lol.
 

ohkphoto

Snow White
Thanks for the kind words everyone.

Unfortunately the concept of 'build it and they will come' doesn't work the same way for forums most of the time. It's more of the opposite actually. When a need arises for forums like this, threads can be moved from general forums into specific forums. I do like the idea though, and I would like to expand into more specific forums in the near future.

I'm as happy as a clam (and not the gulf shore ones! :) )

Thank you, Anthony, Greg, Fotojack and jdeg for listening , allowing me to express my opinion and for educating me on the practicality of forums.
 

ohkphoto

Snow White
I guess what I am saying is I to think it will all come to pass with time, like a child this site will experience growing pains, but grow up to be even greater then it is now. I tip my hat to everyone that is involved in this site; I love all the great photography (in the galleries). I think we all learn just taking a look at each other’s work. It invokes ideas, it inspires, it pushes others to strive for better. Just my two cents, what do I know?….lol.

This is a really nice post, Curt, and well said. :)
 
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