Low keeper rate with 105 f2.5 AI-s

gustafson

Senior Member
I'd been having problems getting sharp shots with my 105 f/2.5 Nikkor-P (Sonnar type) (http://nikonites.com/prime/33627-ra...l-105-f-2-5-nikkor-p-d3300.html#axzz4B7iDlggL), so I ended up returning it and purchased the 105 f/2.5 AI-s instead, hoping it was a better copy. I only just got around to playing with it, and it feels like deja vu all over again! I took some sample shots of a subject (a piece of mail) 10-15 feet away using my D7100 in manual mode, and my keeper rate was pitiful due to shots that were out of focus. I took a few shots with other manual lenses (75-150 f/3.5 E, and 135 f/2.8 Q), and got significantly better keeper rates, so it seems like the 105 f/2.5 is just more demanding on technique. I plan to spend some more time troubleshooting this issue and report my progress in this thread. Meanwhile, any tips on taming focus on the 105 f2.5 would be appreciated!
 
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nikonpup

Senior Member
google - "tips for macro photography". Some members shoot hand held and get amazing shots, most of my good shots are on a tripod.
 

Ima93m4k3r

Senior Member
Greetings, I'm new to this forum but allow me to say, regarding your problem of blurry photos with your 105/2.5 have you considered it may be your own eyesight? I own and use an early Nikkor 105/2.5 a with the coated lens and have found it (and each 105/2.5 or 105/2.8) a beautiful lens. Smooth as butter in the helicoids, quick to focus and rendering colour in a way no modern version has IMHO surpassed. I am now in a wheelchair, and 64 so the "babes" aren't lining up to be photographed by me so I use mine for everything including landscapes. Always try hold your camera steady, if you've a tummy pull your elbows in against your rib/tummy and squeeze the shutter on the out breath, or if sitting place elbows on your thigh-knee area, best of all use a tripod. I attach a sea/landscape taken with a 105/2.5 ai and D610.
91c0618b30bf259a2287f6a6e9a4023e.jpg



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Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
What I have found is that I had to replace the focusing screens on my D7000, D700 and Df in order to be able to properly use manual focus lenses and get decent results. Moderns DSLRs focusing screens are not de-polished enough for manual focusing. It's like you see through them more than you can focus on the surface of the screen. You can check on-line focusingscreens.com as they have most models. I did the install myself and found the instructions very clear and easy to follow.

Here's a shot done with the 105 and Df. I think I've read that this lens is more of a portrait lens and it shines more at closer distances than maybe other telephoto lenses...

MCC_9339 - copie.jpg
 

aroy

Senior Member
I have 105mm F2.8 AIS. Macro lenses have extremely short DOF at close range, so either you get the focus spot on, or use F/32-F/44 to get sharp images.

It may be your eyes are bad. Mine are, so for critical shots below F/16, I use Live View - you cannot go wrong there.
 

gustafson

Senior Member
Thank you all for your helpful responses. I spent some time messing around with the 105 f/2.5 AI-s yesterday, and discovered, among other things, that my copy consistently gives me soft images wide open for objects in the portrait range (15ft or less). I noticed that sharpness and contrast improved at f/4, and peaked at f/5.6. While I need to perform more comprehensive tests using liveview and a tripod, at least I have a better handle on the sharpness issue. This lens (and its prior incarnations) have such a legendary aura about them that I probably missed these details in the reviews. For instance, I can swear I've read before that it is sharp and contrasty wide open, which is simply not true (at least for my copy). I went back and redid my research, and sure enough, found some actually useful information amidst all the hype about this lens. I'll share a couple of them for the benefit of others that run into the same issue in the future:

These are notes from David Ruether: "Performance declines at wide stops near minimum focus (both conditions together), otherwise this lens is excellent even wide open"

I found this informal review of the 105 f2.5 particularly helpful:

Random Bits from Boredom: 105mm f/2.5 AI-S: Another old skool Classic
 

Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
Don't forget that for portrait, sharpness isn't the main ingredient. Lighting and skin textures come first. And sometimes a bit of softness is welcome.
 

gustafson

Senior Member
Don't forget that for portrait, sharpness isn't the main ingredient. Lighting and skin textures come first. And sometimes a bit of softness is welcome.

You make a good point. My copy, however, seems to turn details to mush at f/2.5 to f/2.8. For instance, it does not resolve eyelashes. I'm new to portraiture, so my view might change after I get some experience under my belt.


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Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
You make a good point. My copy, however, seems to turn details to mush at f/2.5 to f/2.8. For instance, it does not resolve eyelashes. I'm new to portraiture, so my view might change after I get some experience under my belt.


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Could you post examples? Maybe a portrait with a wall beside the subject so it could be used to check if there is a focus issue or not.
 

gustafson

Senior Member
Could you post examples? Maybe a portrait with a wall beside the subject so it could be used to check if there is a focus issue or not.

Yes, will do. I took a few this evening of a still subject using liveview and a tripod, and I was able to get sharper images at f/2.5. Getting sharp shots shooting handheld with the viewfinder at f/2.5 is difficult due to the wafer thin DOF, as even the slightest sway of the upper body tends to mess things up. Stopping down to f/4 or f/5.6 helps immensely.


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gustafson

Senior Member
Could you post examples? Maybe a portrait with a wall beside the subject so it could be used to check if there is a focus issue or not.

Here are some examples. I aimed for the Disney logo on the near corner of the box and shot at f/2.5 through f/8. Not sure why the EXIF data is a bit screwy and not showing 105mm (I used Non CPU Lens Data), but if you zoom in you can see the softness wide open and improvement as I stopped down.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/89411942@N04/5q801h
 

Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
What I see at 2.5 is front focusing issue. I don't know how you did focus (viewfinder or LV), but try focusing with LV and zoom in to focus properly. Then don't touch anything and do the different aperture shots again. I'm almost certain that you would be happier with the shots at 2.5 then (well I hope). Manual focusing with the standard Nikon supplied screen is EXTREMELY difficult and it's always a gamble.

Hope this helps.
 

Marcel

Happily retired
Staff member
Super Mod
Just one more thing. Any lens will show a bit of sharpness increase as soon as you close the aperture a bit. So it's a bit normal that you find the f5.6 and f8 shots sharper...
 

gustafson

Senior Member
What I see at 2.5 is front focusing issue. I don't know how you did focus (viewfinder or LV), but try focusing with LV and zoom in to focus properly. Then don't touch anything and do the different aperture shots again. I'm almost certain that you would be happier with the shots at 2.5 then (well I hope). Manual focusing with the standard Nikon supplied screen is EXTREMELY difficult and it's always a gamble.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Marcel. I tried this yesterday, and it does work better with liveview on a tripod. Handheld, however, with this lens wide open, is a good challenge to improve one's handholding technique. It's not just about holding the camera steady, but also keeping one's torso rock solid (or bracing against a vertical surface), because even slight movement of the torso blows the focus.


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gustafson

Senior Member
Just one more thing. Any lens will show a bit of sharpness increase as soon as you close the aperture a bit. So it's a bit normal that you find the f5.6 and f8 shots sharper...

Agreed! Optics aside, in the case of this lens, I feel the increased DOF at smaller apertures makes it more forgiving to faults in handheld technique.

One other observation worth noting is that diffraction seems to set in somewhat early on this lens (f/11) and robs sharpness, so f/4-f/8 is a safe window to work handheld. I'm setting mine to f/5.6 for general use, and will use wider apertures with extra attention to keeping the camera and body steady.


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Ima93m4k3r

Senior Member
Agreed! Optics aside, in the case of this lens, I feel the increased DOF at smaller apertures makes it more forgiving to faults in handheld technique.

One other observation worth noting is that diffraction seems to set in somewhat early on this lens (f/11) and robs sharpness, so f/4-f/8 is a safe window to work handheld. I'm setting mine to f/5.6 for general use, and will use wider apertures with extra attention to keeping the camera and body steady.


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I'm starting to get confused now. As I recall it, the wider open your lens, i.e. 2.5 the faster your shutter speed, the faster your shutter speed the less camera shake. Sure at 2.5 and close to your subject you do reach the place where the slightest wobble toward it will "blow" the shot but conversely the slightest wobble away still keeps you in the game. I'm going to tell something some nikonites may find ghastly, very un-PC, but 43 years ago after a stint as a vegetarian I moved from the big city into the country and rented a big farm house. The farmer was very happy if I got rid of rabbits, and geese in season: geese eat a huge amount of grass rabbits eat less but their burrows cause hillside erosion. I decided since I was taking their lives, plucking and skinning and cleaning them, I could now eat meat as karmically speaking I was taking full responsibility. Soon I moved on to bigger guns, wild boar, goats and deer. Then I got a telescopic sight for more precision at longer ranges but even after I had sighted it in on targets I was finding I was often missing the shot: I preferred a clean kill you see. We made new friends up there and one was a deer hunter to whom I explained my problem and the answer he gave me, I think is relevant to this topic.
He said, don't just aim your crosshairs on the region of the heart, or brain, but focus on a particular tuft of fur and aim at that, then hold steady until you can see a tuft of fur, then one or two individual hairs hold steady then squeeze the trigger/shutter.
Lastly, I have my hand cupped around the focus ring and am constantly tweaking: either I am focused a smidgeon beyond the subject of a smidgeon this side and then I bring it into focus and snap!
With a digital set your ISO high enough so that at f2.5 your shutter is at at least 1/90 sec. There should be no excuse for not being able to move further away or closer if needs be (unless you are in a wheelchair like me,) I have an old 135 /2.8 ai too, heavy as hell but cheap nowadays and what a lens! As for talk of modern screens not being good for manual, I cannot say, I don't own a 3200/3300 I only have a D200 and more lately a D610 and with live view I can't go wrong: incidentally with manual lenses I use the back screen (matte) and swing the helicoid in and out until my subject looks most "there" plus, I never play about with portraits slower that 1/125 if I can help it, a good portrait is fleeting: now you see it now you don't. And it is not about "sharpness" IMHO but capturing the inner being.
Hope this long ramble helps.



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gustafson

Senior Member
I'm starting to get confused now. As I recall it, the wider open your lens, i.e. 2.5 the faster your shutter speed, the faster your shutter speed the less camera shake. Sure at 2.5 and close to your subject you do reach the place where the slightest wobble toward it will "blow" the shot but conversely the slightest wobble away still keeps you in the game. I'm going to tell something some nikonites may find ghastly, very un-PC, but 43 years ago after a stint as a vegetarian I moved from the big city into the country and rented a big farm house. The farmer was very happy if I got rid of rabbits, and geese in season: geese eat a huge amount of grass rabbits eat less but their burrows cause hillside erosion. I decided since I was taking their lives, plucking and skinning and cleaning them, I could now eat meat as karmically speaking I was taking full responsibility. Soon I moved on to bigger guns, wild boar, goats and deer. Then I got a telescopic sight for more precision at longer ranges but even after I had sighted it in on targets I was finding I was often missing the shot: I preferred a clean kill you see. We made new friends up there and one was a deer hunter to whom I explained my problem and the answer he gave me, I think is relevant to this topic.
He said, don't just aim your crosshairs on the region of the heart, or brain, but focus on a particular tuft of fur and aim at that, then hold steady until you can see a tuft of fur, then one or two individual hairs hold steady then squeeze the trigger/shutter.
Lastly, I have my hand cupped around the focus ring and am constantly tweaking: either I am focused a smidgeon beyond the subject of a smidgeon this side and then I bring it into focus and snap!
With a digital set your ISO high enough so that at f2.5 your shutter is at at least 1/90 sec. There should be no excuse for not being able to move further away or closer if needs be (unless you are in a wheelchair like me,) I have an old 135 /2.8 ai too, heavy as hell but cheap nowadays and what a lens! As for talk of modern screens not being good for manual, I cannot say, I don't own a 3200/3300 I only have a D200 and more lately a D610 and with live view I can't go wrong: incidentally with manual lenses I use the back screen (matte) and swing the helicoid in and out until my subject looks most "there" plus, I never play about with portraits slower that 1/125 if I can help it, a good portrait is fleeting: now you see it now you don't. And it is not about "sharpness" IMHO but capturing the inner being.
Hope this long ramble helps.



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You make some good points. The telescopic sight you mention is in some ways akin to zooming in with Liveview, and thus is a huge help with manual focusing. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I've not been able to use Liveview effectively when going handheld, so I tend to rely on the viewfinder which I'm finding challenging to focus with when shooting with this lens wide open. I need to experiment a bit with the techniques suggested by you and others in this thread and see if I can find a reliable workaround. I've found that simple things like bracing the body against a wall or other vertical object can greatly help control the rocking motion that seems to be my biggest challenge in nailing focus with this lens wide open.
 

Ima93m4k3r

Senior Member
One thing I have noticed using manual focusing lenses, and that is you must not just set your camera to manual, or A but also switch off your MATTRIX metering, and if you have Focus modes, (a little button on the side of the switch on the front of the camera, that says A-M) check your focus mode is not in the AF-C mode. How could that affect anything? I hear you ask, I don't know...I just feel the camera's algorithms must be bypassed as much as possible. You are going manual, backward in time. Sometimes you should trust what your eye is telling you on the matte area. Especially in portraiture where you are going for the 'essence' of an individual.


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aroy

Senior Member
One thing I have noticed using manual focusing lenses, and that is you must not just set your camera to manual, or A but also switch off your MATTRIX metering, and if you have Focus modes, (a little button on the side of the switch on the front of the camera, that says A-M) check your focus mode is not in the AF-C mode. How could that affect anything? I hear you ask, I don't know...I just feel the camera's algorithms must be bypassed as much as possible. You are going manual, backward in time. Sometimes you should trust what your eye is telling you on the matte area. Especially in portraiture where you are going for the 'essence' of an individual.


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1. Once you set the focus in manual mode (or the lens is a MF lens), then at least in D3300 the AF modes are grayed out, so I do not think that setting the AF to AF-C or AF-S matters

2. If the body supports metering with non CPU MF lens (D3300 does not), then for close ups, spot metering is more accurate than Matrix. The latter tends to use the light in the background for exposure calculations, and depending on what the ambient light is the shot is either over exposed or (in most cases) under exposed.

3. If you are using a flash that complicates the matter even more. When I use 105mm AIS lens with flash for macro photography, I use fraction of the total flash power depending on the F number
. Full power at F/44
. 1/2 at F/22
. 1/4 at F/16
etc
These are for 1:1. For other distances I set the power after a couple of tries.
 
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