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  1. #1
    Senior Member

    Question on TIFF

    As a hobbyist I've finally started getting serious on how to use my camera then how to save/print pics worth saving or framing. I was using Raw here recently then converting to JPEG. One pic the wife wants enlarged has a limitation of around 20x30 per the company I've emailed. I'm using a D7200. I took some pics today and converted to tiff from PS and see the MB went from around 7-10 under JPEG to 72 under tiff. The 6000x4000 pixels and 300 pixels/inch stayed pretty much the same. Can I expect to be able to create a larger print or canvas using tiff or do companies that make these prints and canvas even accept tiff? I'll try and load the pic in a minute.

    Thanks


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  2. #2
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    RocketCowboy's Avatar

    Re: Question on TIFF

    Going larger, you also need to consider the viewing distance from the image. The 300dpi number was typical for a 4x6 or 5x7 that you’re going to hold in your hand, but larger prints are usually viewed further back.

    The last time I checked with printers for image size, they were looking for 120-240dpi on most sizes, which I would probably agree with here too.

    How large are you wanting to go with this print?


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  3. #3
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    hark's Avatar

    Re: Question on TIFF

    Photoshop will allow you to upsize. It's always better to move up or down in 10% increments rather than to resize one time. There is also a program called ON1 Resize 10 that uses algorithms for resizing. I've compared it with Photoshop (doing the 10% thing, too), and liked ON1 Resize 10 a little better--although they were very close.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member

    Re: Question on TIFF

    I'm not using a home printer. I'm talking about one of the commercial companies making the larger print if I have something worth framing. I'm just still confused on pixels, size to use, Raw, JPEG and so on.

  5. #5
    Senior Member

    Re: Question on TIFF

    Quote Originally Posted by hark View Post
    Photoshop will allow you to upsize. It's always better to move up or down in 10% increments rather than to resize one time. There is also a program called ON1 Resize 10 that uses algorithms for resizing. I've compared it with Photoshop (doing the 10% thing, too), and liked ON1 Resize 10 a little better--although they were very close.

    Thanks. I've just started using Photoshop and have a lot to learn with it.

  6. #6
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    nikonpup's Avatar

    Re: Question on TIFF

    Question on TIFF-print.jpg
    Question on TIFF-print2.jpg
    6000 x 4000 = 24 megapixels. Good enough for 20 x 30 print. The 7-10 is the files size. If you check the online photo processors they usually will have a chart that will give you the number of megapixels needed for various size prints.

    Last edited by nikonpup; 07-04-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member
    WayneF's Avatar

    Re: Question on TIFF

    Quote Originally Posted by EODK9Trainer View Post
    I'm using a D7200. I took some pics today and converted to tiff from PS and see the MB went from around 7-10 under JPEG to 72 under tiff. The 6000x4000 pixels and 300 pixels/inch stayed pretty much the same. Can I expect to be able to create a larger print or canvas using tiff or do companies that make these prints and canvas even accept tiff?
    I think that was your question. Your D7200 takes 24 megapixel images (6000x4000 pixels). 24-bit RGB image data size is always 3 bytes per pixel, so 24 megapixel RGB images (standard 24-bits) are all always 24 mp x 3 = 72 million bytes (68.7 MB). That is just how life is. JPG color images are Always 24-bit RGB. 24 megapixels of 3 byte RGB data. And the top line of the PS Image Size box shows this number. Says Pixel Dimensions (they are on next lines), then it shows MB (from pixel dimensions) on this top line. It is width x height x 3 / 1048576 to convert million bytes to MB (1048576 is 1024 x 1024).

    However, then file data compression can reduce the file size smaller, tremendously smaller if JPG. There are still 24 megapixels (unless you resample smaller).

    Your D7200 manual on the File Size page (page 380 of the User Manual) says for Large files (6000x4000), then:

    JPG Fine Compression averages 12.7 MB files
    JPG Normal Compression averages 6.5 MB files

    Note that Normal compression is NOT "normal". Fine is normal, we like better quality images. Fine is the default provided.

    The TIFF file will still be the same 24 megapixels, so will Not offer a larger print. It could be better quality, depending (cannot be better than the original JPG image it starts from, but TIFF could prevent adding additional JPG losses in subsequent copies).

    The size difference is due to file compression methods. TIFF files can be compressed, and LZW compression is commonly provided. LZW is conceptually better, but it compresses much less drastically, because LZW is "lossless" compression. It does not affect image quality, always is best quality. Not many printing places will accept other than JPG however. However High Quality JPG is very acceptable for printing.

    But it has to always be High Quality. Once it is lower quality, it will never improve and never get better again (the lossy data becomes the image data). So out of the camera should be High Quality , and out of the photo editor should be High Quality, and the fewest possible times saved as JPG is the idea. If it will be edited and Saved many times, then save it as TIFF until the last final JPG for printing. Just one of the many advantages of Raw images is that they are not JPG images, not until the one last final save (one time) as High Quality JPG for distribution.

    JPG compression is "lossy" compression, taking liberties to achieve much smaller files, but with the cost of loss of image quality. These losses involve substituting other colors (possibly similar but different) for some pixels, to make the data easier to compress tremendously. Color is the detail in the images. With strong JPG compression (low quality JPG) you may see 8x8 pixel blocks of all the same color in blank areas, and you likely see fringing around sharp edges. Those are losses, and that is the lower image quality. Technically, JPG is always JPG, even highest levels always have some loss, but High Quality JPG can be very acceptably good. Maximum JPG quality normally does not offer visible benefit, so usually a bit less than Maximum is used, but just don't skimp much on Quality any where, any time.

    JPG compression is a variable, and JPG Quality is specified when the file is written. Image editors offer a JPG Quality setting, like from High to Low quality.
    A High quality JPG image is a larger file (but still much smaller than the 68 MB uncompressed data).
    A Low quality JPG image is a smaller file. Who wants that?

    High Quality files might be 1/4 to perhaps even 1/8 the uncompressed (68 MB) size.

    The camera offers Normal JPG Quality, and says it is 6.5 MB / 68.7 MB, which is 10% data size (on average).
    But the default is Fine JPG Quality and says it is 12.7 MB / 68.7 MB, which is 18% data size (on average), around 1/5 data size.
    Everyone likes better quality images. The camera Default is is Fine JPG Quality images.

    In your photo editor, don't specify lower JPG quality. Fairly high JPG quality is the idea, and the goal.
    The purpose of an image is to be a high quality image, and NOT to be a small size file. We can't see it when it is in the file.
    Whenever we can see it (RGB monitor) it is 3 bytes per pixel again (uncompressed).

    The JPG size numbers are approximate, Not absolutes, because size also varies with image content. An image will lots of blank space (walls, skies, etc - large areas with less detail) will compress better, into a smaller file.
    An image full of small detail (a picture full of tree leaves for example) will not compress as small, and will be larger than other images. If you have several dozen various and different JPG images from the camera in a folder (all the same megapixels), and if you sort that folder by file size, you see that the file size could vary over perhaps a 2 to 1 range. The smallest files will have blank areas (devoid of detail), and the largest file will be a very busy image full of detail.

    But file size depends on both megapixels and JPG Quality. 6000x4000 pixels will print 20 x 13.3 inches at 300 dpi. If your plan however is to print 6x4 inches, then 1800x1200 pixels does that (300 pixels per inch), and more cannot help. Always keep your pristine original camera file (who knows what the future will want from it?), but you can resample the file copy to be sent for printing.
    Last edited by WayneF; 07-04-2018 at 07:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Texas's Avatar

    Re: Question on TIFF

    And beware of "upsizing" any file type. It creates best guess (mathematically) new intermediate pixels. Truly something for nothing. May make sense if you insist on having a print company make you a soft picture (to get around their ppi x size limits). I'm sure the billboard companies do their own upsizing if their printers require it, there's no reason for a photographer to do so.

    The only time this makes sense is if you are contributing to magazines which have crazy (low) limits for digital photos they print.
    Pros upsize before submitting to Arizona Highways just to avoid the explanations to folks enforcing the rules. (Well this was true a couple years ago, the mag may be smarter now).
    Last edited by Texas; 07-04-2018 at 10:12 PM.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member

    Re: Question on TIFF

    Suffice to say this is a confusing hobby but I appreciate the info you all have provided.

  10. #10
    Happy to be Canadian
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    Marcel's Avatar

    Re: Question on TIFF

    I don't think that you should worry about that. You could ask the printer to upsize for you "if they see the need for it". But I've printed 2x3' prints from my D700 which was only 12 Mp and the print looks stunning. As far as TIFFs, not too many printers that I know like to work with this format.

    Don't overthink this, just have it done and see how it comes out. You're not spending millions to launch a rocket here.

    We sure would love to see the result or at least the image you want to print large.
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