Photo contests?

jdeg

^ broke something
Staff member
Hi everyone. I'd like to get your thoughts on starting photo contests. Post your ideas for topics and prizes.
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
I think photo contests are a good idea. That will generate more interest in this site. I might suggest you or someone appoint a contest committee of 5 or 6 people to develop the operating rules, set topics, find judges, and set schedules for the various contests to run. A committee of this nature would be on going. As contests are completed others will have to be under development, rules published, judges found, etc. As for prizes, it will depend on how much money is available.
 

jdeg

^ broke something
Staff member
Good suggestion Joseph - Maybe that committee could also be responsible for picking the initial sets of top photos. I would the the entire community to vote on winners, but that would be difficult if there were lots of submissions. Narrowing it down to the top 20 or so would make it much easier.
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
That's a good idea. I did not think of the numbers that might be submitted in any one category. Putting a limit on the numbers to be voted on by the community, say 20, or what ever number the committee might decide will make voting by the community less cumbersome. You also don't want so many being voted on that you wind up with multiple ties for any one placing. The ideal is one winner in each place. If 20 or less are submitted then all of them can be submitted for a vote. If more than 20 the committee can pare it down. My recommendation for a committee to do the contest set up and selecting the initial group to be judged is so you will get less bias and a lot fewer complaints from the community. Prizes don't have to be extravagant. A nicely printed certificate that can be framed and/or a place ribbon would be nice.
 

Eduard

Super Mod
Staff member
Super Mod
The big question is how the contests will be evaluated. I've seen on other sites where people created multiple accounts to vote for themselves. That created a lot of ill will.

You might want to consider starting small. What about a "Critique My Shot" section and see how that goes?
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
Eduard - I agree with you to an extent. Yes there are going to be people who are going to try and cheat. Unfortunately that's the way of life. The only defense to cheating is to make it so difficult to cheat that it's not worth while. BTW, I think that a "Critique My Shot" is a forum we should have regardless of whether or not we have photo contests.

A bulletin board like this one should have a voting program built in, or obtainable, that reads the incoming votes and keeps the tallies. These voting programs have what is called an IP reader (or something like that) that reads the address of the computer from which the vote originates. All computers set up to operate on the internet have this address. They are unique to that computer. The voting program can be set up to read the incoming IP address and only accept one vote from that computer for that contest, so that someone can't create multiple accounts and vote for himself that many times. Not on the same computer at the same location anyway. If he was still intent on cheating, and say cast 12 votes for himself, he would have to find 12 different computers at 12 different locations in order to get 12 different IP addresses. On top of that he would still have to create 12 Nikonites memberships with all the fake information plus 12 different email addresses from each location. And this is for one contest. If he wants to do this for another contest he will have to go back and change all the fake membership info, email addresses and create new Nikonites memberships just to avoid suspicion. There are other things that can be tossed into the mix that will make it even more difficult to cheat.

While cheating is possible, because of the complexities and work involved, it is most likely very rare and not significant. What I suspect you have seen on other sites as alleged cheating, and ill will, is allegations from people who think they have submitted a much better picture than the one that did win and theirs didn't even place, therefore the winner must have cheated. The most common cheating that goes on in contests where voting is involved is calling up all their friends and relatives and get them to create a membership and vote for their photo. There is nothing anyone can do about campaigning for votes.

I don't think the possibility of cheating is a valid reason not to have photo contests. I do think there is a lot of benefit from creating the spirit of competitiveness amongst the members to improve their shooting skills.
 
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Eduard

Super Mod
Staff member
Super Mod
Joseph - I apologize if my response came across as anti-contest. I'm not that at all. I just wanted to point out a major issue that I've seen on other sites.

As far as critiques, either via contests or a dedicated section, I think I've learned more by the comments than any magazine or blog. One of my favorite sections on DPReview is the Retouching forum because of how folks explain what their vision was and how they implemented it on images. Seeing the different results of a single image has encouraged me to get out of my comfort zone which IMHO is always a good thing! :)
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
Eduard - It looks like I'm the one that owes you the apology. It was not my intent to portray you as anti-contest. You certainly are not. After re-reading my response to yours it looks like that is the way it came out. I guess I got a little carried away on the cheating issue. Cheating is one of my pet peeves. I think you had an excellent idea for a "Critique My Shot" forum. That would be a good learning forum as long as the critiquing is constructive.
 
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Joseph Bautsch

New member
A passionate conversation is great as long as there are no accusations.

At this point I think we need to see input from other members, forum moderators, the administrator. The committee method of administrating the photo contests was just a suggestion. Is that the way we should go? yes/no? Any other ideas, suggestions, thoughts?
 

jdeg

^ broke something
Staff member
Joseph - luckily I have ways to tell if members are creating multiple accounts, and cheating. The forum software has a built in poll/voting system, so there is no worry there. The gallery also has a rating system, but the forum might be easier to use for purposes of a contest.

I have to work out the exact process for collecting, choosing top entries, and ultimately voting on the winners. Here's my initial thoughts: The collecting part could be done by way of the gallery software - members could just upload their photos to a specific album to enter, then post in the contest thread. Choosing top entries could be done by the photo contest committee. (choosing that committee could be done by application and chosen by Nikonites staff). Voting on the winners could be done by voting of the entire community.

I was actually thinking about adding forums specific to critiquing/posting photos, and that's a great idea.
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
jdeg - I knew that there was built in safe guards to prevent multiple accounts and cheating, just not how extensive. I don't know anything about the functions of vBulletin so I can't really comment on best way to set this up. Choosing the committee by application and chosen by the Nikonites staff is a given. I also agree with the entire community voting but I would not rule out having the occasional guest judge. I note that you have this thread set up as a sticky. Keep us posted as to your progress.
 

fotojack

Senior Member
Joseph, I like your concise explanations on the topic at hand. Very well done.

Might I suggest one of the photo competitions be based on totally untouched photos....straight out of the camera, as it were. :) No Photoshopping whatsoever. This way, it puts everyone on an equal playing field. Not everyone has mastered the art of Photoshop use, or other such software. Your thoughts on this?
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
fotojack - I agree that we need to do something to "level the playing field". I personally consider myself a photographer not a graphic artist. I do not own or use Photoshop. For what I want to accomplish with my photographs, it's way to expensive and way to complicated for my simple mind to comprehend. I shoot everything in RAW. BTW I use Aperture 3 for my photo management and post processing. The only other program I use is an Aperture HDR plug-in.

What a camera sees is usually very different from what the mind's eye will see. Why do you take a picture? Perhaps you see a wonderful shot with outstanding color, contrast, shadows and highlights making up these wonderful forms, shapes and angles. So, click, you take the picture. You get home, down load the picture and yuck that's not what I saw. Next thought is, do I dump it or not. True that is not always the case every now and then the camera will capture a shot close to what you wanted. But how many hundreds of shots do you take for the few that are worth keeping or for that matter worth submitting to a photo contest.
By having "totally untouched photos...straight out of the camera" are we just eliminating a really big part of an individuals artistic expression? Are we reduced to judging camera capability? When I take a picture I want the final result to be what I saw in my mind and not what the camera saw.

Maybe a better way to "level" the playing field would be to have a point-and-shoot camera category. Most point-and-shoot camera enthusiasts don't have sophisticated post processing programs. They can and do take photos that are worthy of competition but can't really compete with DSLR photos that have been post processed. Also to help level the playing field I suggest a "Photo Art" category. That would be for those digital pictures that have been "photoshopped" to the extent they are more works of art rather than a photo.
 

Eduard

Super Mod
Staff member
Super Mod
fotojack - I agree that we need to do something to "level the playing field".

I think there is a place for both. Even in the film days, you could dodge or burn a print, push ISO, etc to manipulate the final results. I personally don't see a problem with using whatever tools are available in pursuit of your vision. But I'm not a fan of processing to an extreme so that the first reaction is to the technical aspect and not the image.
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
Eduard - You are right. That's why I recommended there be an "Art" category of some type for those images that start out as digital, get photoshopped and wind up being graphic art and then submitted as a "photo". In any event I don't think there is any argument that the playing field can be leveled out probably by creating separate categories as has been discussed here. All of the ideas expressed here have merit. The issue is one that will need to be taken up by the Photo Contest Committee.
 

fotojack

Senior Member
.....processing to an extreme so that the first reaction is to the technical aspect and not the image.

This was exactly my point. Thank you, Eduard. As for the different categories, I have no problem with that. Makes sense, too. I, too, consider myself a photographer and not a graphic artist. Hence the reason I brought it up in the first place. :)
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
....That's why I recommended there be an "Art" category of some type for those images that start out as digital, get photoshopped and wind up being graphic art and then submitted as a "photo"....

All photography is art, but one's definition of art is subjective. It is rare that any photographer has ever been happy with a photo straight out of the camera and did not subject his work to post processing of some kind. Even Ansel Adams, perhaps photography's biggest advocate of purism, heavily edited his work using dodge and burn techniques.

I think it would be a mistake to create separate categories at all, much less to somehow diminish the value of processed work by calling it graphic art rather than a photograph.
 

Joseph Bautsch

New member
Browncoat, I appreciate your opinion. We need more responses from community members as to how they think these photo contests should be set up. Obviously, you and I are at opposite ends but that's OK. If that's what the community wants, then it won't be the first time I find myself in the minority. As for Ansel Adams, I learned photography using a B&W 120 roll film, Kodak box camera when he was still working in Yosemite National Park. I had five of his books explaining his process from composition to the final print. I considered them to be the bible of photography. And yet for all of his dodge and burn techniques he never produced anything that was not obviously a photograph taken with a camera. And that is the issue I have with extensive PhotoShopping of a photograph. I'm not diminishing the value of that kind work at all. Some of the work done by people that really know how to use PhotoShop is fantastic. However, IMHO, that kind of work can be more graphic art than photograph and belongs in a different class.

My thoughts on the different categories. There is really no way to judge what contest submission is photograph and what should be graphic art. There can be a very fine line between the two. That judgement would be nearly impossible. And who would make that judgement anyway. What I would suggest is an "Open" category. That would include any photo taken with any Nikon camera with or without processing or PhotoShopping. The other two categories I would suggest is for Point-and-Shoot and DSLR with limited post processing.
 

Browncoat

Senior Member
...I learned photography using a B&W 120 roll film, Kodak box camera...

Now that is very cool!

I completely understand your point. It is a valid one that I tend to agree with on most occasions. It largely depends on the individual photograph. HDR for example, is hit or miss with me. When used in moderation, HDR can bring out rich tonal depth and look simply amazing, yet still natural. But far too often, it gets over-used.

One of my favorite photographers has a technique where he transforms people into marionettes through Photoshop editing. These images are obviously heavily edited, yet they are very compelling and evoke a lot of emotion. I use this as an example because although there is a lot of editing, it is still art because of that emotion.

Perhaps categories are the solution, I don't know. Whatever is ultimately decided, it should be clearly stated in the contest rules how post-processing will be handled. For me, Photoshop is my darkroom and few images go through my workflow without some form of editing.
 
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