Not an "Apple Guy" or an iPhone Guy, But Wow. Just... Wow!

That is a pretty strong letter to its customers. They are correct in that building a backdoor for the FBI would be great for the hackers in the world. Once a backdoor is built the hackers would be able to get in faster than the FBI could.

I am not a fan of Apple either and really hate what they have done with their computers but the iPhone is a great device I have had quite a few of them ad have 2 iPhone 6 phones now. I love them
 

carguy

Senior Member
I see both sides of this issue and I find it very interesting.

I will say, I am surprised our government is not able to crack the code on this device. The fact that they are reaching out to Apple at all is fascinating.
 

J-see

Senior Member
The problem isn't cracking the code, it is only having a limited amount of tries until the content deletes itself.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
I see both sides of this issue and I find it very interesting.

I will say, I am surprised our government is not able to crack the code on this device. The fact that they are reaching out to Apple at all is fascinating.
Apple's encryption technology is pretty intense. For current iPhones you have a fingerprint scanner. That scanned biometric information, along with your password, is stored in a separate and semi-isolated chip; in effect a hardware-based solution which is HLS (High Level S--t) all by itself. Apple goes further though... That scanned data is then encrypted at the user-level, meaning Apple doesn't know the key, can't get the key nor can they generate a key of their own.

Attempts to "Brute Force" your password, the most common method of "hacking" a password, are defeated by "Time Out" protections. This mean if someone enters the wrong password too many times in a row, the user won't be able to make another attempt at entering the password for, say, two minutes. Additional failures at entering the correct password make for even *longer* time-out periods; something along the lines of eight or ten minutes if memory serves. If you want, you can even enable your iPhone to "wipe" all the data it contains (and I mean EVERYTHING) after too many incorrect password are attempted. This is something the FBI very much does NOT want to happen to these phones.

So yeah... Apple is not screwing around with their encryption and I applaud them for it, personally.
 
Last edited:

WayneF

Senior Member
Apple's encryption technology is pretty intense.

A hardware debugger (a special computer box with keyboard and monitor, with a cable connection that clamps on top of the microprocessor chip pins, and can control it to run single step, etc), can see the code, and can defeat (bypass, jump around) the fingerprint and the timeout tries.. It still has to have the matching encryption code to decode the text, but the phone of course has it, and must access it, so I'd think the FBI with this box could manage that too?

That part I know, next part I do not know...

I am making the assumption that the phone processor does this work. But it could all be embedded in a special encryption chip, not available outside that chip? Still seems like it should still be triggered to "go" though? Obviously is a problem for them though.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
A hardware debugger (a special computer box with keyboard and monitor, with a cable connection that clamps on top of the microprocessor chip pins, and can control it to run single step, etc), can see the code, and can defeat (bypass, jump around) the fingerprint and the timeout tries. It still has to have the matching encryption code to decode the text, but the phone of course has it, and must access it, so I'd think the FBI with this box could manage that too?
I'm familiar with hardware debuggers and asking a program animator to handle this is akin to asking a Lego set to hack into the Pentagon. The chip that contains the encryption chip (assuming there's only one) is, to use Apple parlance, "enclaved" meaning it operates as an isolated system. Only after this system is satisfied is an "all clear" signal sent to the CPU allowing the phone to operate. If the solution was as easy as running down to the local Radio Shack do you really think the FBI would be filing a court order demanding Apple re-write their operating system to allow the FBI to get what they want? Or that Apple do FOR them what they can't do themselves and do so, "at a reasonable cost"? Even the court order makes it clear the FBI is aware the technology to do what they're asking may not yet exist.

So, simply put, the technology to do what the FBI is demanding does not (at this point in time) exist, there's no way around it, the Feds are totally pissed off about that and want Apple to create the necessary technology, implement that technology and too provide it to the FBI for their use.
 
Last edited:

WayneF

Senior Member
I'm familiar with hardware debuggers and that's like asking a Lego set to open a bank vault.


It obviously is a problem, but I'd much rather battle the firmware than the encryption. One seems doable, and one does not. The debugger can easily trace out the firmware route the processor follows (like when opening an encrypted email), removing much mystery. The firmware source might even be available from Apple (to the FBI), which makes it be hours or days instead of weeks or months. But at least it seems possible, the debug box can do anything Apples phone processor and firmware can do, and can watch Apple do it, and Apple does seem able to do it. But it is not happening, so I suppose smart encryption may have designed ways around that too?

However still, Apples processor can do it... But if access requires typing the key, then all bets are off.
 
Last edited:

mauckcg

Senior Member
That is a scathing response. Good on him for having the brass ones to take a stand against the Feds over something like this.
 
I was just watching a report about Android phones flashlight apps. They were saying that the top 10 flashlight apps had trojan code that could send info from your phone to other places. The top three places were Russia, China and India. Seeing the letter from Apple today and seeing the article about Android make me feel a little better about my choice in phones.
 

Nero

Senior Member
I was just watching a report about Android phones flashlight apps. They were saying that the top 10 flashlight apps had trojan code that could send info from your phone to other places. The top three places were Russia, China and India. Seeing the letter from Apple today and seeing the article about Android make me feel a little better about my choice in phones.
Been using Android for about 6 years now and not once have I ever had a problem with that sort of thing. Never even heard of anyone falling victim to something like that, and I'm quite a few sites that deal with mobile tech. It's not as big an issue on the Android side as some sites would have you think. ;) Actually, there was an article recently that showed that iOS might be more vulnerable to malware than Android but I've never heard of an iOS user falling victim to that sort of thing either.

As for this, this is one time where I actually side with Apple.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
The terrorist iphone thing seems to be asking for something that Apple could actually do, meaning knowing a specific encryption key is not necessary... not if Apple could comply.

So what the FBI should be asking for is for Apple themselves to take the phone, and in private, do whatever they need to do to access the email on that one phone, and to provide that one specific result to the authorities. More like a specific search warrant then, which if the comparison holds, our laws do allow courts to order for specific named searches.

But they should not be asking for Apple to provide the means to get into any future phone for any reason, by anyone holding the method. That definitely would Not be a specific court ordered named search with probable cause.

However, I suspect it would mean that Apple could then set up a new department, just for such searches.
 
Last edited:

cwgrizz

Senior Member
Challenge Team
I was just watching a report about Android phones flashlight apps. They were saying that the top 10 flashlight apps had trojan code that could send info from your phone to other places. The top three places were Russia, China and India. Seeing the letter from Apple today and seeing the article about Android make me feel a little better about my choice in phones.
A year or so ago, I heard the same about iOS flashlight third party APPs, but the one that came with the actual iOS operating system was OK. Any more, who knows??
 

Daz

Senior Member
I was just watching a report about Android phones flashlight apps. They were saying that the top 10 flashlight apps had trojan code that could send info from your phone to other places. The top three places were Russia, China and India. Seeing the letter from Apple today and seeing the article about Android make me feel a little better about my choice in phones.

This was a massive thing on the Apple/iPhone side too, plus Apple didn't like it because at the time Apple did not offer a native flashlight app (so how much really was scaremongering from inside? who knows?)

Samsung has had a native Torch button for ages now so it perplexes me why someone would need to add an app?


I have left apple and gone Samsung but I do applaud Apple for taking a stance, if you open this up for authorities it will quickly fall into the wrong hands !!
 

AC016

Senior Member
I had to chuckle at the fact that the only thing stopping them from cracking the password, was a simple slider that may have been "turned" to "on". I never knew iPhones were this secure. I may have to get myself an iPhone, yikes! I think the least that Apple can do, is take the phone, crack it and give all the info to the FBI. I don't think Apple should be telling the FBI how to do it though, but Apple should help them. Any future or current cases that are similar, should all go through the court system as well. Just my thoughts.
 
Last edited:
Top