Diffraction and pixel pitch

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J-see

Senior Member
Not great to shoot so I'm bored enough to take some shots to show the effect of closing down in relation to pixel pitch or the dreaded airy disk.

First the D7200 with the smallest pixel size. I used the Zeiss 135mm since the lens is practically flawless. Too bad she doesn't close further than f/22 but it still shows what goes on.
100% crops of the central, critical fine-tuning with live at max zoom. Slight variations in exposure are possible since I have to adjust the shutter accordingly.

Around f/15 the cam's Airy disk becomes large enough to seriously affect sharpness/detail and it goes rapidly down after that.

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Next I'll do the D810.
 
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J-see

Senior Member
D810.

It has about a full stop advantage on the D7200 before the airy disk is large enough to seriously start affecting detail/sharpness. It's around f/22 which is the max for this lens. Too bad I haven't got the macro here at the moment; that one closes down a whole lot further.

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If I have time, I might get the D750 since it has an even larger pixel pitch which holds sharpness/detail longer than the D810.
 
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J-see

Senior Member
Interesting, But I never use an aperture that small so im good :)

It's mostly affecting macro. In landscape I occasionally need to close down to handle the light of the sun but at some point it is better to use an ND filter to get the same effect without sacrificing detail.

For everything else you seldom have to close down beyond f/11. I prefer as wide open as I can get away with.

If you use a micro-sensor with an even smaller pixel pitch, the airy disk starts to affect faster and faster.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
Your cameras do offer good opportunity to compare pixel size, but you blew it. Try it again, and apply some tiny bit of standards of a scientific procedure.

The biggest blunder is that your two tests are not even compared at same size. It is just some pictures...

DX must of course be enlarged 50% larger than FX (to be the same size) to be able to compare same thing at same size, which is first rule. Enlargement is harder on DX, enlargement shows diffraction better (hence the "about one stop" FX advantage), but enlargement of that sensor size is its only difference. Same size is a necessary step. Same size is first rule of comparison. Showing the smaller image reproduced smaller gives it unfair advantage in a comparison of quality.

These letters are compared on screen here at about 120% size difference. Some of that difference must be the forum resizing. Your FX files are about 1.6x height, but the small letters in it are about the expected 1.5x in your cropping. Uploading same size images would be a fair comparison, and should avoid that forum difference too.

100% crops of FX and DX would be 150% (FX/DX), as you tried to show, but your responsibility is instead that a comparison must instead be shown same size. When we print 8x10 prints, or show full screen on our monitor, they are enlarged to the same size.

I might choose another lens, with more range, since if about diffraction, it would be great if you stopped down enough to show much effect of the diffraction. But above all, we should compare the same subject. Shoot the same word... and it should include the SAME letters (the same one ink printing of it). Exif is in it, that's good, but add some description, was the camera in fact at same distance on unmoved tripod? We believe you, just say it. What is the focus distance? (to the mark on rear edge of camera?) Technically, it would have more meaning if the lens were in a more normal working zone of distance (<10% size), since at this macro distance, the f/stops are not nearly same numbers as marked. You are of course greatly exceeding f/22 at this macro distance, up to a couple of stops, but we have no knowledge of what you are doing. At least the Nikon macro would show the corrected f/stop number, the numbers would have meaning.


The really big deal about stopping down, NOT mentioned in your test, is that the lens provides those stops because there definitely are many situations of stopping down when the increase of depth of field HELPS MUCH MORE than the diffraction HURTS. This can include f/40 (sometimes), and it is true regardless of pixel size. Let's face it, resampling a 24 megapixel image way down to be able to view it helps many things.

Stopping down is a wonderful tradeoff, sometimes, but not always.
 
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J-see

Senior Member
Did you ever consider the option this is not a comparison between cameras but how aperture affects each individual camera depending on its pixel pitch?
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Did you ever consider the option this is not a comparison between cameras but how aperture affects each individual camera depending on its pixel pitch?

I did consider that your posting 2 minutes after mine gave it no thought at all. :)

To compare for equalness, we have to compare at equal size. That is how we use images, we print the same 8x10.

So try to do a valid comparison.
 

J-see

Senior Member
I give up Wayne.

Maybe someone else can explain why it doesn't matter when I show identical shots of the D7200 using different aperture to see the effect at work, and then another batch of D810 shots showing the same among all D810 apertures, that the size nor subject of both batches have to be identical.
 
J-see you need to get off this subject and quit assuming that your opinion is always right. And WayneF just stop responding to J-see's post. The two of you just don't get along. Everyone is tired of it and I am tired of having to close your threads.
 
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