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  1. #21
    Senior Member
    sonicbuffalo's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    I see what the excitement is all about.....heck, mirrorless (the most modern versions) have only been on the market for what, 5 years tops? I still say in the future it's setting the pace. In 10 years, or maybe even 5, it will overtake DSLR's for the hobbyists. I think the pro lines have quite a way to go, but heck, mirrorless already has a 36 mp camera out....not sure if it's a full frame body.


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    Chris
    FLICKR -

    Sony A7 Full Frame Mirrorless / Sony Zeiss 16-35 mm - 4.0/Sony Zeiss 55-1.8/Sony 28-70 mm/Sony 70-200 mm - 4.0
    Nikon D500(Grace Slick) /18-140/
    Tamron 150-600




  2. #22
    Senior Member
    AC016's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    Quote Originally Posted by sonicbuffalo View Post
    I see what the excitement is all about.....heck, mirrorless (the most modern versions) have only been on the market for what, 5 years tops? I still say in the future it's setting the pace. In 10 years, or maybe even 5, it will overtake DSLR's for the hobbyists. I think the pro lines have quite a way to go, but heck, mirrorless already has a 36 mp camera out....not sure if it's a full frame body.
    The 36mp camera you are talking about is the Sony A7r and it is FF. I agree, for the hobbyist (like me) mirrorless will be the way to go in 5-10 years. For pros? Well, i guess it depends on what they shoot. Despite me having a "Pro" (X-Pro1) camera ( i find the name really pretentious, but it's the camera that i like), did Fuji get it right when making a "pro" camera? I have no idea. I think it comes down to what the photographer wants in a camera.
    Thanks/Like sonicbuffalo Thanks/liked this post
     
    Who dares, wins.

    Cameras: Fuji X-Pro, Fuji X10, Olympus TG3 and Nikon D2X.




  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Browncoat's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    Let me offer up the flip side of the coin.

    My camera timeline:
    Sony P&S > Sony a330 (1st DSLR, 2010) > Nikon D90 > Nikon D300s > Nikon D800 > Fuji X100S (mirrorless, 2014)

    In a little over 4 years, I have switched from P&S to crop-sensor DSLR to full-frame DSLR to mirrorless...across 3 different brands. I've done just about everything with my cameras from fiddling around in the back yard to paid commercial shoots. I tell you honestly and truly that if I had a time machine to go back and do it all over again, I would go with mirrorless over a DSLR. Had I known then what I know now, I would've bought into the Fuji X system right from the start. Here's why:

    1. Mirrorless is the future. DSLRs are just electronic SLRs from the film era. There's not much more room for technological advances in DSLR cameras. Will they even be around 10 years from now?

    2. Price. Image quality on par with DSLRs @ 1/2 or even 1/3 the price.

    3. Portability. Mirrorless kits are smaller and lighter, which is a huge selling point if you're used to lugging around a bunch of gear.

    Most important of all, I feel a connection with this camera. The retro aspect of the Fuji X100S cannot be denied. A DSLR is just an ugly black box. It is just a tool, like a hammer or a screwdriver. At best, it's an appliance. The X100S is a friggin' work of art. It's beautiful. It says pick me up and get out of the house. It has made me love photography again, and re-awakened my creativity. That's not something I ever experienced with a DSLR.

    I got tired of the lens and megapixel rat race. I think a lot of us tend to buy more camera than what we really use. I also think a lot of us at least somewhat subscribe to the theory that a better camera means better photos. I suspect this is the issue with the author of that letter. Anyone who can on a whim order a D800 and 3 high end lenses in one shot has money burning a hole in their pocket and a serious gear crutch problem. Funny how he mentions the fear of being a "consumer", and then drops about ten grand on a Nikon kit. WTF?

    Going mirrorless has simplified my entire approach to photography. My workflow is smaller and I've been getting back to simpler lighting setups. You just have to be willing to embrace change and have a desire to get back to basics.
    Thanks/Like sonicbuffalo Thanks/liked this post
     
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    sonicbuffalo's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    @Browncoat......#1,2, and3 are valid....I agree....but come on....not everyone wants to turn the clock back to a retro looking Fuji. I really don't like the look. I am, however, impressed with the shots you posted. Skin tones looked very natural. I'm glad Fuji and Olympus are there (along with Nikon) to give Sony a run for their money.

    I'm not sure you would have bought into mirrorless right from the start...since it was just beginning to develop into what it is now. I think for anyone getting into photogaphy now, they should seriously consider the mirrorless cameras out there for sure. Top of the line mirrorless is going for close to what I paid for my D610. Quite a bit cheaper than the D810. That only applies to the full frame Sony. I still like my pentaprism viewer better than what Fuji has to offer. It's all a matter of taste. Like I said, just like with 8-tracks, and cassettes, next came Cd's and then DVD's to replace the VCR. The same with cameras...DSLR's will be dinosaurs in a matter of time. I think, IMHO, that it will happen when the tipping point is to the point where the lens choices are even with a mirrorless versus a DSLR lens setup. I think there will be more FF's in the mirrorless realm once that happens since they are cheaper (the bodies). The mirrorless lenses are still pretty steep in price for comparable DSLR lenses. Lets' hope they don't come out with cameras that you use and throw away (like the new smart phones) where you can't change the batteries. That would give me a great big reason to keep my cameras. But as for looks, no, I like the DSLR style just fine. I really, truly, don't like the looks of the Fuiji....but would buy one eventually if they redesigned it with a good viewer.
    Last edited by sonicbuffalo; 07-28-2014 at 09:46 PM.
    Chris
    FLICKR -

    Sony A7 Full Frame Mirrorless / Sony Zeiss 16-35 mm - 4.0/Sony Zeiss 55-1.8/Sony 28-70 mm/Sony 70-200 mm - 4.0
    Nikon D500(Grace Slick) /18-140/
    Tamron 150-600


  5. #25
    Senior Member
    wornish's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    My "two penneth" being a Yorkshire man.


    When it comes to IQ the glass matters most and none of the mirrorless have any lens that approaches the legacy glass of the DSLR manufacturers in terms of resolution, just look at DxO lens tests or any other review you choose. Big glass wins.
    (Yes you can put big glass on mirrorless bodies but you save what 400 grams in body weight and have an unbalanced camera.

    When it comes to sensors size matters - its just Physics / Optics. To match FX you need an FX size mirrorless sensor, same with DX or Micro 4/3.

    When it come to speed of AF-S and focus tracking then none of the mirrorless can match the speed of the DSLR's (Nikon 1 may be the exception) today.
    In any review Sony, Fuji, Olympus or whoever can't compete with a DSLR. Yes they are getting better but not there yet

    The latest Sony A7s at 12.2 MP is probably the leading camera in terms of low light capability - no DSLR can touch it.

    So Yes mirrorless is getting better but it still can't give the overall experience of a DSLR - yet.

    Times will change as technology moves on. I am still waiting for the definitive mirrorless camera and will change when they deliver better results than a DSLR can.

    If its just the weight thing then thats why I use the Nikon 1 as my walk about but not as a serious DSLR replacement.

    Everyone has their own criteria, but I certainly don't right off the quality you can get out of a DSLR..... legacy has a lot going for it.
    Thanks/Like sonicbuffalo Thanks/liked this post
     
    Dave


    My Photos

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    AC016's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    Quote Originally Posted by wornish View Post
    My "two penneth" being a Yorkshire man.


    When it comes to IQ the glass matters most and none of the mirrorless have any lens that approaches the legacy glass of the DSLR manufacturers in terms of resolution, just look at DxO lens tests or any other review you choose. Big glass wins.
    (Yes you can put big glass on mirrorless bodies but you save what 400 grams in body weight and have an unbalanced camera.

    When it comes to sensors size matters - its just Physics / Optics. To match FX you need an FX size mirrorless sensor, same with DX or Micro 4/3.

    When it come to speed of AF-S and focus tracking then none of the mirrorless can match the speed of the DSLR's (Nikon 1 may be the exception) today.
    In any review Sony, Fuji, Olympus or whoever can't compete with a DSLR. Yes they are getting better but not there yet

    The latest Sony A7s at 12.2 MP is probably the leading camera in terms of low light capability - no DSLR can touch it.

    So Yes mirrorless is getting better but it still can't give the overall experience of a DSLR - yet.

    Times will change as technology moves on. I am still waiting for the definitive mirrorless camera and will change when they deliver better results than a DSLR can.

    If its just the weight thing then thats why I use the Nikon 1 as my walk about but not as a serious DSLR replacement.

    Everyone has their own criteria, but I certainly don't right off the quality you can get out of a DSLR..... legacy has a lot going for it.

    There is one major problem with your statement: DXO has never ever & will never ever test a Fuji lens. They can't because the software they use does not handle the Fuji RAF file. Fuji is and always has been, first & foremost an optics company. They have designed lenses for Leica (you know Leica right?) and we all know how damn good Leica lenses are. They have also made and designed lenses for Hasselblad (look at the TX-1/X-Pan). Fuji are making lenses that are close to being optically perfect and i would not shy away from saying, surpass many Nikon lenses. Big glass only "wins" if matched up with the right sensor and there is only a certain point in which they win. If you look at some of the noise tests done between Nikon DX?FX cameras and the Fuji X-Pro1, i think you are going to be quite surprised.
    Thanks/Like sonicbuffalo Thanks/liked this post
     
    Who dares, wins.

    Cameras: Fuji X-Pro, Fuji X10, Olympus TG3 and Nikon D2X.




  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Browncoat's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    Yeah, all the pixel peeping IQ nonsense means exactly zero. Who cares how a lens performs in an airtight laboratory at zero gravity on Mars? It has no practical application. No one, and I mean NO ONE shoots in 100% optimal conditions. It's the camera equivalent of those guys who buy $5,000 1/2 horsepower improvements for their cars. Now, we can debate this all day long. But the simple truth is, it's nothing more than measurebating. "Mine is 0.035% better than yours."

    Mirrorless isn't for everyone. The system has its limitations, just like a DSLR. But for 90% of what I want to shoot, it's a good tradeoff. Just going off of the bulk of the images posted on this forum, most could make the switch and not bat an eyelash. The last thing I want to incite is a Nikon vs Fuji debate, but @AC016 is correct regarding Fuji glass. It is second to none, and often cheaper...on less expensive bodies, than Nikon or Canon offerings. Many are saying that Fuji is the new Leica for a reason. The quality is certainly there, even if the premium price tag isn't.

    And yes, @sonicbuffalo, I stand by my statement: I would absolutely go with the Fuji X system if I were starting today. Hell, I got rid of my D800 and all my glass. If that doesn't prove my point, then I don't know what does. I am 100% invested in Fuji now, with no regrets.

    @wornish mirrorless AF issues were a problem, yes. Some systems may still have issues, but Fuji has worked theirs out. The X100S focuses like a champ. I would put it up against any DSLR. As for the DSLR "experience", don't forget that it's not all shits and giggles. DSLRs have their hangups. I can sync flash with my X100S comfortably at 1/1000 due to the leaf shutter. I can also handhold shots at extremely low speeds that a DSLR simply can't touch due to that mirror banging around. I can completely customize my viewfinder: OVF, EVF, or hybrid, and choose to display whatever information I want. I can also preview images in my viewfinder. Mirrorless has an "experience" as well.
    Thanks/Like John P, sonicbuffalo Thanks/liked this post
     
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Challenge Team
    Blacktop's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    Out of curiosity I just looked at the Sony A7s on Amazon, then scrolled down to see some lenses for it. $800.00 for a 35mm 2.8. Whoa.
    Thanks/Like sonicbuffalo Thanks/liked this post
     
    Nikkor 20mm f/2.8 AF-D
    Nikkor 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5-D
    Nikkor 50mm f/1.8-D
    Nikkor 24-120mm f/4 VR
    Nikkor 70-200mm F/2.8 VR I
    Nikkor 200-500mm f/5.6 VR
    Pete's Flickr... Blacktop's Photo and a Song .... Blacktops 365

  9. #29
    Senior Member
    wornish's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    Here is an interesting real world comparison between a DSLR and Mirrorless.
    \The Great Mirrorless Camera Autofocus Shootout! (GH4, X-T1, A6000, E-M1) - YouTube

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    sonicbuffalo's Avatar

    Re: Pretty Much Sums Up How I Feel About Mirrorless Right Now

    @Browncoat......what is the estimated shutter life of your Fuji? I looked up the specs and couldn't find it. Thanks.
    Chris
    FLICKR -

    Sony A7 Full Frame Mirrorless / Sony Zeiss 16-35 mm - 4.0/Sony Zeiss 55-1.8/Sony 28-70 mm/Sony 70-200 mm - 4.0
    Nikon D500(Grace Slick) /18-140/
    Tamron 150-600






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