Indoor flash settings with a D7100 and SB-700 flash

Revet

Senior Member
I am still learning my new D7100 and I saved flash photography for last so here it starts. I have set up my U1 setting for indoor flash photography. The settings I use are 1/250 sec shutter speed, f/4 and ISO 400. I set this up in the M mode. I use AF-S and spot metering so that I am on TTL and not TTL-BL on the SB-700. This gets me pretty good consistent exposures indoors.

Now, as I increase flash exposure compensation (using the flash button above the bracketing button on the left side of the body looking from the rear), I increase the exposure of both the subject and background. When I decrease flash compensation, I decrease exposure of the subject and background. Now I tried the exposure compensation button next to the shutter release (increasing and decreasing) which did nothing to the exposure. I believe this is because I am in manual mode in which case the exposure compensation button does nothing but move the meter indicator (Auto ISO is off) Does that sound correct??

Also, in the D7100 manual (p. 124), it says that adjusting flash compensation will affect the subject more relative to the background. That was not the case in this experiment in which both were affected uniformly. Any input on this???

Thanks for any input.
 

Revet

Senior Member
Now to add to the confusion, using those same U1 settings that I have set up for indoor flash photography. I took shots of a subject with a light in the background and increased shutter speed from 1/250 to 1/30 with everything else unchanged. Again the whole exposure got much brighter (subject and background) as shutter speed lengthened. I thought shutter speed would only affect ambient and leave the subject pretty much the same??
 

WayneF

Senior Member
I am still learning my new D7100 and I saved flash photography for last so here it starts. I have set up my U1 setting for indoor flash photography. The settings I use are 1/250 sec shutter speed, f/4 and ISO 400. I set this up in the M mode. I use AF-S and spot metering so that I am on TTL and not TTL-BL on the SB-700. This gets me pretty good consistent exposures indoors.
</quote>

That is pretty much my procedure for bounce, except I might be around 1/160 second, until some slower or faster reason. Just a quirk.

<quote>
Now, as I increase flash exposure compensation (using the flash button above the bracketing button on the left side of the body looking from the rear), I increase the exposure of both the subject and background. When I decrease flash compensation, I decrease exposure of the subject and background. Now I tried the exposure compensation button next to the shutter release (increasing and decreasing) which did nothing to the exposure. I believe this is because I am in manual mode in which case the exposure compensation button does nothing but move the meter indicator (Auto ISO is off) Does that sound correct??

Flash Compensation does affect (only) the TTL flash intensity. However, Exposure Compensation affects both ambient and flash (and adds to the other flash compensation), but in camera Manual mode, it cannot change the ambient settings. Canon is not that way, but Nikon defines "exposure" as ambient plus flash. EC will affect the TTL flash (and the ambient meter). I use it indoors when I need more than the +1 EV that FC will do (and the ambient is dim). +1 FC and +2 EC is a total of +3 EV to the flash, and +2 EV to the ambient.

I didn't understand about the background - ISO 400 1/250 f/4 without flash ought to be pretty black indoors, even in a fairly bright room. Nothing to see.

Also, in the D7100 manual (p. 124), it says that adjusting flash compensation will affect the subject more relative to the background. That was not the case in this experiment in which both were affected uniformly. Any input on this???

Thanks for any input.

Yes, the manual means the flash lights the near subject, but may not reach as far as the distant background (depends where it is of course).

Sounds like it was bounce? And ISO 400 f/4 suggests bounce. Bounce does light up the background (a little less dependent on distance), part of the reason we use it, but that illumination is from flash.

Now to add to the confusion, using those same U1 settings that I have set up for indoor flash photography. I took shots of a subject with a light in the background and increased shutter speed from 1/250 to 1/30 with everything else unchanged. Again the whole exposure got much brighter (subject and background) as shutter speed lengthened. I thought shutter speed would only affect ambient and leave the subject pretty much the same??

1/30 should affect continuous ambient, but not the flash, so that would be puzzling. 1/30 second should make the ambient show up, not bright but very visible now at ISO 400 f/4, and probably quite orange (seen with no flash). The flash should not increase.

I suggest you stand up something that will make visible shadows from the flash, and also stand something near the lamp so it also makes decently strong shadows. Examining the shadows (intensity and direction) in the picture should help identify which light is which?

You might try the same thing direct flash instead of bounce, to recognize the bounce contribution to the background.
 
Last edited:

Revet

Senior Member
Thanks Wayne. Much of your response prompted me to review flash photography principles which helped me see where my problems were here. Let me run what I think is correct through you and others.

First off, I don't get when you say you use EC to boost flash power when you need more than +1. For that to work for me on the D7100, I would have to be out of manual mode such that I was changing ISO or Aperture thus affecting the effective flash power (larger aperture or higher ISO). If I am in M mode, changing EC does nothing but move the meter needle (the digital representation of it that is). You do say that is true of Nikon's (not Canon's) early on in your response. So you must be in a different mode or using a Canon to use EC to boost your flash more than the +1 FC gives you.

So, now my reasoning after reading your response, If I use the settings i say in the U1 mode for indoor flash photography, most of the time i get good exposures. If I don't or I want a different look I can do the following:

1) use FC to increase or decrease flash power (-3 to +1). If I need more than +1, I would increase ISO or open the Aperture. Then to balance ambient if needed I would reduce the shutter speed the same f stop amount.

2) If I want to increase or decrease ambient light, I change shutter speed (faster - less ambient, slower- more). I think this was the problem I was having when I was adjusted FC and I thought it was affecting the ambient background. At the settings I was using, there was no significant ambient. I believe that is what you were trying to tell me correct??

I don't know what happened when I was increasing shutter speed from 1/250th to 1/30th with direct flash; it did change the subject exposure dramatically. It probably was my set up. I was shooting a colorful pillow on the middle of a bed propped upright from the end of the bed. The ambient light comes from a light on a nightstand at the head of the bed so I was evaluating the light and the wall right behind it as the non-subject background light. So when I changed shutter speeds from 1/250th to 1/30th without changing anything else, it was changing the entire exposure, the pillow and the wall (and the light of the light) got much brighter.

Two more things come to mind that fit in this post.

1) why the difference in Auto FP (1/250 Auto FP or 1/320 Auto FP)??? Is there an advantage in using one or the other? Isn't this just the shutter speed that Auto FP kicks in at so why wouldn't you want it to kick in at 1/320 or higher and use 1/250 as your max shutter sync speed??

2) The D7100 has the option to have EC change just the background (affects just EC) or the entire frame (affects EC and FC). It doesn't say what it is doing but I would imagine if you have it set to Background only, it is only changing shutter speed; in contrast, if it is set to entire frame, I would assume it changes aperture or ISO affecting both ambient and effective flash power. Is that what this menu option on the D7100 is all about?? If that is the case, I don't need to worry about it in M mode indoor photography like I have set on U1. It does come into action when I am outdoors in TTL-BL mode doing fill flash in P mode. In this case I guess I would want it on only background and then use FC to adjust flash power. Then you have individual control of each variable (Flash Power and Ambient light). Is this reasonable thinking??

I guess the last scenario is when you are in in-between lighting. In this case, all I need to do is kill the ambient and go with indoor flash techniques. Or if I want ambient light, use the balance flash on P mode and play with the FC and EC until you get what you want (or I guess you can also adjust shutter speed, ISO, and aperture in in the P mode pretty easily on the D7100).

I think that covers it for now. Please correct any aberrant thinking i have!!
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Thanks Wayne. Much of your response prompted me to review flash photography principles which helped me see where my problems were here. Let me run what I think is correct through you and others.

First off, I don't get when you say you use EC to boost flash power when you need more than +1. For that to work for me on the D7100, I would have to be out of manual mode such that I was changing ISO or Aperture thus affecting the effective flash power (larger aperture or higher ISO). If I am in M mode, changing EC does nothing but move the meter needle (the digital representation of it that is). You do say that is true of Nikon's (not Canon's) early on in your response. So you must be in a different mode or using a Canon to use EC to boost your flash more than the +1 FC gives you.

No, EC always affects the TTL flash, including camera manual mode. -- (Oops!) Coming back up to this line, your D7100 E4 menu is a choice to make that be not true, see below. I was writing up here before I got to E4 below. :)

Probably more than anyone wants to know...

In manual mode, EC does move the meter, but the meter meters ambient, the meter is not about flash. This is hard to explain... + EC raises the exposure target goal point. If not manual mode, the camera controls react to reach that goal for ambient. The TTL flash power ALSO reacts to that goal, however not speaking of the meter, the meter meters ambient, which is likely far down indoors.

FC affects ONLY the TTL flash, and TTL is automatic in any camera mode.

EC affects auto ambient and TTL flash (also auto). EC and FC add at the flash (again, see E4 exception below). Nothing affects Manual flash mode of course.

Canon separates them, EC means only ambient, and FC means only flash. There are Pros and Cons either way. For Nikon, outdoors in Sun where ambient really counts, the TTL BL flash does Balanced Fill Flash (TTL BL flash is probably down about -2 EV for fill in bright sun). Point and shoot balanced fill flash. Then if we want the result a bit different, EC adjusts both darker or brighter, in one operation. Canon is two operations.
However, in Nikons, if you want to underexpose ambient 1 stop using EC, then you have to add +1 back in FC. Pros and cons.

The latest two or three Nikon models have a new menu E4 to separate them or not, Canon style or Nikon style, so to speak.

So, now my reasoning after reading your response, If I use the settings i say in the U1 mode for indoor flash photography, most of the time i get good exposures. If I don't or I want a different look I can do the following:

1) use FC to increase or decrease flash power (-3 to +1). If I need more than +1, I would increase ISO or open the Aperture. Then to balance ambient if needed I would reduce the shutter speed the same f stop amount.

Yes, or could also add some EC, it adds to the FC. Or the flash body has FC on it too, you could add that. All of these sources add to a total FC. (again, E4...)

I find it best to adopt one system (EC or flash body) to help me remember when resetting them off. I don't use camera body much, because we have icons in camera top LCD that shows if EC and FC is on, and shows FC on Nikon speedlights, but probably not in third party.

2) If I want to increase or decrease ambient light, I change shutter speed (faster - less ambient, slower- more). I think this was the problem I was having when I was adjusted FC and I thought it was affecting the ambient background. At the settings I was using, there was no significant ambient. I believe that is what you were trying to tell me correct??

Yes, I would not expect to see any indoor ambient at ISO 400 1/250 f4. Could say no significant ambient, but I really think it will be jet black.

Speedlights, I usually back off a bit on shutter speed, just a bit of ambient warms it and can be pleasing if not overdone.
But studio sessions, ISO 100 and 1/250 and probably f/8, to keep absolutely all orange ambient out. Even the modeling lights.

I don't know what happened when I was increasing shutter speed from 1/250th to 1/30th with direct flash; it did change the subject exposure dramatically. It probably was my set up. I was shooting a colorful pillow on the middle of a bed propped upright from the end of the bed. The ambient light comes from a light on a nightstand at the head of the bed so I was evaluating the light and the wall right behind it as the non-subject background light. So when I changed shutter speeds from 1/250th to 1/30th without changing anything else, it was changing the entire exposure, the pillow and the wall (and the light of the light) got much brighter.

1/30 second ought to affect anything the ambient light was on. But not the flash.

Two more things come to mind that fit in this post.

1) why the difference in Auto FP (1/250 Auto FP or 1/320 Auto FP)??? Is there an advantage in using one or the other? Isn't this just the shutter speed that Auto FP kicks in at so why wouldn't you want it to kick in at 1/320 or higher and use 1/250 as your max shutter sync speed??

The 1/250 and 1/320 seem interchangeable to me for flash. Nikon always warns that the flash range might be decreased at 1/320.

This is my notion, the way I interpret it. In this class of camera body, the shutter can obviously do 1/320 sync. Simply obviously does it, very well. No question about it.
But Nikon "specs' the shutter at 1/250, and the spec chart says 1/250.

Speedlights are slow at full maximum power. The SB-700 spec chart (page H-17) says 1/1042 second at full power. Full power is truncated shorter at lower power levels, but at full power, it has the normal trailing tail as the power fades away. This is impossible to measure. When is it gone? at 10%? 5% 1%? It is basically a horizontal line on the graph, and getting to zero takes a very long time, relatively, a few milliseconds.

That duration in flash specs in general is the half power points (called T.5 measurement), the time the power is above 50% of the peak (standard engineering practice, which can be measured). The full trailing tail takes longer, and does contribute. The 1/10 power points (T.1 method), the time the power is above 10%, is better suited for photography, but they are engineers, you know? :) Commonly accepted engineering practice is that T.1 is 3 times longer than T.5. That makes 1/1042 second T.5 be 1/347 second T.1. And 10% is not zero, so there is still a bit more... hard to say for how long. The remainder does not contribute much, but it is not zero.

So at full maximum power, it is likely that the 1/320 second shutter speed truncates part of that weak trailing tail, and less power does reduce flash range.

IMO, it is negligible. Only true of maximum power level. The other levels are vastly shorter duration. The other levels are truncated duration for lower power, but very fast duration. They are all surely already shorter than T.1.

I think Nikon is being super-cautious about the specs for the 1/320 second sync. The shutter is obviously that fast. The speedlight maximum power level might not quite always be. But it simply just works.


2) The D7100 has the option to have EC change just the background (affects just EC) or the entire frame (affects EC and FC). It doesn't say what it is doing but I would imagine if you have it set to Background only, it is only changing shutter speed; in contrast, if it is set to entire frame, I would assume it changes aperture or ISO affecting both ambient and effective flash power. Is that what this menu option on the D7100 is all about?? If that is the case, I don't need to worry about it in M mode indoor photography like I have set on U1. It does come into action when I am outdoors in TTL-BL mode doing fill flash in P mode. In this case I guess I would want it on only background and then use FC to adjust flash power. Then you have individual control of each variable (Flash Power and Ambient light). Is this reasonable thinking??

OK, that is the new E4 menu I mentioned. Very few models have it, only the most recent 2 or 3 models. It didn't register in time that your D7100 was one of them.

It is not about shutter speed. You can select if EC affects only ambient (called background), or the old standard way, affects both ambient and flash. I suppose the manuals can't confuse the most rank newbies with words like ambient. :)

E4 is something else in the D7000... not one of the most recent models.

So if you have so selected your E4, to "background only", then you're right, EC does not affect flash.

I guess the last scenario is when you are in in-between lighting. In this case, all I need to do is kill the ambient and go with indoor flash techniques. Or if I want ambient light, use the balance flash on P mode and play with the FC and EC until you get what you want (or I guess you can also adjust shutter speed, ISO, and aperture in in the P mode pretty easily on the D7100).

I think that covers it for now. Please correct any aberrant thinking i have!!

Balanced flash (TTL BL, default for SB-700 unless Spot metering) does automatic fill flash, meaning automatic flash reduction in brighter ambient.

TTL flash mode (Spot metering) does whatever the flash actually meters, regardless of any ambient.

That means, outdoor with fill flash in bright sunlight...

TTL BL probably does it right automatically, probably applies (invisible, not seen in LCD menus) about -2EV flash compensation. Probably comes out good, fill in bright sun.

TTL mode (spot metering) for fill in bright sun, has to be manually set to about -2 EV flash compensation. The old standard value is -1.7 EV.

If the automatic camera ambient metering meters the subject normally, and if TTL mode flash meters the subject normally, and both do their normal thing,
then that is two normal exposures on the subject, adding to 2x, or one stop overexposed by definition.
TTL mode has to be backed off manually, and TTL BL mode backs off automatically.
And fill ought to be a bit weaker anyway.

It is just that indoors (no significant ambient), TTL BL sometimes seems to back off a bit anyway.

And the Commander (also TTL BL) is for multiple flashes, and they add and combine too, but the Commander meters them individually, does not see how they combine.
So the Commander seems to back off, just in case they might add. I routinely set +1 EV FC for the Commander, and it normally works out well.
TTL BL in one hot shoe flash may not need anything. Or it might at times... We do what we see we have to do.
 
Last edited:

Revet

Senior Member
Thanks again, all makes sense. So now I see the beauty of the D7100. With those U1 settings set for indoor flash using TTL and camera mode M, if I put the E4 option to the "Canon Mode" in which EC affects both background (ambient) and flash; essentially I have an expanded flash power control. If I use FC, I am adjusting flash power between -3 and +1. But if I use EC instead, I am adjusting flash power between -5 and +5 since EC only affects flash power and not ambient if you are in M mode. That of course is the case only if you don't max out your camera power but it is nice to be able to go past +1 if you have it available. I could go to the flash to adjust power but I think your right, it is best to do one thing consistently. I ran some tests and this is what happens, if I set the E4 option to Background and flash, the EC becomes a wider range (+5 to -5 ev) control of flash power. Very cool!!

Now when I am outdoors and I want fill flash. I change to P mode, use TTL-BL (matrix or cnt wt). Now in this mode I think I will use the E4 option for Nikon (ie. ambient only). That way I can control flash with FC and ambient (background) with EC.

Now, you did mention something which doesn't quite make sense to me. Lets say I have the E4 option set on Nikon mode (EC affects only background or ambient and not flash power). If I am not in M mode, what is the camera changing to only affect ambient light if it doesn't change shutter speed??? Any change in aperture or ISO will affect both flash and ambient. Is this one of those magic wand tricks that Nikon uses that we just don't know what it is doing??

I ran some tests and here is what I found. If I have option E4 set such that EC affects background only (I am still in TTL mode during this test). When I have it in M mode, EC does nothing as above; in A mode, EC changes shutter speed: in S mode, EC changes aperture, and in P mode, EC doesn't change aperture, shutter speed or ISO and magically some how the background is a little different!!! Weird!!! So anyhow, how can we be changing background only in S mode where aperture is changing. Doesn't that change both flash and ambient???? If have no idea what is going on in P mode which shows no change in Aperture, shutter speed or ISO but the background is different between EC +3, 0 and -3 ev.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Thanks again, all makes sense. So now I see the beauty of the D7100. With those U1 settings set for indoor flash using TTL and camera mode M, if I put the E4 option to the "Canon Mode" in which EC affects both background (ambient) and flash; essentially I have an expanded flash power control.

Actually, your words Canon/Nikon are the other way around. Canon separates them, Nikon combines them (until E4 allowed separation).

If I use FC, I am adjusting flash power between -3 and +1. But if I use EC instead, I am adjusting flash power between -5 and +5 since EC only affects flash power and not ambient if you are in M mode. That of course is the case only if you don't max out your camera power but it is nice to be able to go past +1 if you have it available. I could go to the flash to adjust power but I think your right, it is best to do one thing consistently. I ran some tests and this is what happens, if I set the E4 option to Background and flash, the EC becomes a wider range (+5 to -5 ev) control of flash power. Very cool!!

Speaking of the Nikon way before E4 (EC adds to FC), then EC is a good flash compensation method (more range, +1 plus +3 becomes +4, as you say, if flash has power reserve to do it), speaking of indoors with insignificant ambient. Outdoors, it could be a problem, ambient reacts to EC either way.

Now when I am outdoors and I want fill flash. I change to P mode, use TTL-BL (matrix or cnt wt). Now in this mode I think I will use the E4 option for Nikon (ie. ambient only). That way I can control flash with FC and ambient (background) with EC.

Nikon is not the best term. Background or ambient only is better.

True in the large direct sense, TTL BL does good automatic fill in bright sun. The compensation can be separate like that, but you said outdoors, and ambient level does affect the degree of fill flash (TTL BL). FC should still affect whatever it does, but in strong sunlight, TTL BL is about -2 EV down from metered, Inside (darker ambient), not down much. I don't have the E4 menu here but if separated, the two comps should still affect only ambient or only flash. But as ambient goes up or down, TTL BL can vary, since it is fill flash, oriented to the ambient. In the same fixed situation (where ambient does not vary), then separated should look like that. Statement would be more absolutely true of TTL Spot mode, which does whatever the flash meters, regardless of ambient level.

Your point though, yes, you should have individual control.

Now, you did mention something which doesn't quite make sense to me. Lets say I have the E4 option set on Nikon mode (EC affects only background or ambient and not flash power). If I am not in M mode, what is the camera changing to only affect ambient light if it doesn't change shutter speed??? Any change in aperture or ISO will affect both flash and ambient. Is this one of those magic wand tricks that Nikon uses that we just don't know what it is doing??

E4 choices and terms should be clear about background only, or both.

That would be true of Manual flash mode, aperture affects what its fixed flash level can do.

Metering ambient with EC does change shutter speed or aperture, but TTL flash reacts to stay constant regardless (if it has power to do it). The TTL flash always reacts to whatever situation it wakes up and discovers (ISO, aperture).
Ideally (within limits, and in same situation), TTL flash will always do the same metered intensity goal, regardless of camera settings. Any aperture should give the same TTL result (if power allows). But FC changes that goal.
And TTL BL flash too, but it is also set to be fill level, based on ambient, which can be changed. But FC will individually affect what that fill result is.

I ran some tests and here is what I found. If I have option E4 set such that EC affects background only (I am still in TTL mode during this test). When I have it in M mode, EC does nothing as above; in A mode, EC changes shutter speed: in S mode, EC changes aperture, and in P mode, EC doesn't change aperture, shutter speed or ISO and magically some how the background is a little different!!! Weird!!! So anyhow, how can we be changing background only in S mode where aperture is changing. Doesn't that change both flash and ambient???? If have no idea what is going on in P mode which shows no change in Aperture, shutter speed or ISO but the background is different between EC +3, 0 and -3 ev.

I think your "M mode" means camera M, when EC has no effect on settings. Flash M mode is another possibility I considered. :)

EC should always affect ambient in P mode. Something has to change.The only controls it has is shutter, aperture, and ISO.

Not sure how likely, but all I can think of is that maybe you're in deep shade (dim daylight). With flash, A and P modes enforce E2 Minimum Shutter Speed With Flash, default 1/60. If shutter is limited at 1/60 minimum, or if aperture is limited wide open maximum, then it may not be able to change, even in P mode. Slow Sync or Rear Curtain mode could allow the shutter to go lower (and move with EC).

S mode changing aperture should affect fixed manual flash, but TTL will react with power level to try to stay constant exposure. FC should affect TTL.
 

Revet

Senior Member
Thanks for the very clear response and sorry about mixing up the Nikon and Canon on the E4 option. It seems you were able to follow my reasoning without confusion. After I posted the above thread, I went back and looked at my camera settings when I was playing with Camera P mode. I realized then that the camera was not considering any ambient at all as you suggest because I was indoors at night in low light (there just was no ambient at the settings it was using). I will try it outdoors (as soon as I get some Sun in Cleveland) so I can try shooting someone in shade or with a bright background behind them so I will need some fill flash. That might take until April!!! It sounds like I need to practice that with the new camera anyhow to see how EC and FC changes affect the overall exposure using camera P mode with TTL-BL flash.

At the same time, I also figured out that the camera must be adjusting Flash levels to keep the flash level constant when Aperture is changed thus allowing a change in ambient in Camera S mode without changing the effective Flash output. Thinking it out for myself I hope provides long term retention so thanks for putting my brain into gear (not always easy for me outside of work!!!)
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Yes, insignificant ambient is the better descriptive term. It is amazing how many possibilities we have. We really only have flash or daylight or indoor ambient, the ambient can be bright or dim, and flash has power level, and the camera only has shutter speed, aperture and ISO controls, but we can sure make a lot of of that. :)
 
Top