Flash lighting for old derelict cottage

I have some ideas for a still-life shoot inside an old local derelict cottage.

Lighting will be poor & although I'm planning to get the Nikon R1C1 kit with 2x SB-R200 flash units for close-up work, will they be able to light the subject? What would I need to light, say an old bath or kitchen sink?

The sort of place I mean - except in worse condition!

One SB-R200 has half the power of the camera internal flash, you could try it instead in most non-macro cases.

The SB-700 has about two stops more power (4x) than the internal flash at 24mm zoom, and even more Guide Number at longer zooms.

Thanks Wayne

So it's possible that a couple SB-R200 units may suffice?

Two would have as much power capability as the internal flash. Either way would be flat frontal flash. Frankly I see no advantage over the internal flash then.

Guide Number at ISO 100.
SB-R200, GN 33 feet, which means 2 feet range at f/16 macro. Two equal flashes (aimed on same subject) is 2x power, and 1.414x more GN, or GN 46, with 2.8 feet range at f/16 ISO 100. Double that range if aperture is opened two stops.
Internal flash, GN 39 to 42, feet.

Sorry, I'm not a fan of the R1C1 for any attempt at general use. IMO, any advantage is for macro, when the camera lens is so close it blocks other light. So, they put the little lights on the lens. Then, when so very close, at least the lights are at a little angle, less flat frontal. Talking a few inches, but 2 feet would be a different story.

But you are not talking macro, so there must be some better way to do it with a speedlight. The light in the picture you posted is off camera to our left. Maybe a SC-28 cable with speedlight at arms length. But then the shadows may need to be softened, either a reflector or a larger diffuser.

Thanks for the tips Wayne.

I don't have the R1C1 yet, but it's on my list for close up work. I didn't really have much other use for flash, so a larger unit may not get much use.

From something you mentioned, you do realise that the R200 units don't have to fit on the lens & that they can be positioned individually & controlled remotely?

Gorf said:

Thanks for the tips Wayne.

I don't have the R1C1 yet, but it's on my list for close up work. I didn't really have much other use for flash, so a larger unit may not get much use.

From something you mentioned, you do realise that the R200 units don't have to fit on the lens & that they can be positioned individually & controlled remotely?

Click to expand...

I've been considering that to solve my flash issue but it sadly only works when you're doing close-up of static subjects. If it's a bug and you need to put something left and right, odds are pretty high that by the time you're behind the cam, the bug is somewhere else having a beer.

For anything else it might be handy.

Gorf said:

Thanks for the tips Wayne.

I don't have the R1C1 yet, but it's on my list for close up work. I didn't really have much other use for flash, so a larger unit may not get much use.

From something you mentioned, you do realise that the R200 units don't have to fit on the lens & that they can be positioned individually & controlled remotely?

Click to expand...

Yes, and they also do FP HSS flash that the internal flash does not. HSS is only about 20% power though, which doesn't make much sense. Nor does HSS macro.

Two of them should have same capability as the internal flash.
Guide Number is doubled, and range is doubled, for every two stops you open the aperture. And ISO helps similarly, 4x ISO doubles GN and range.

It just seems to me that everyone needs a larger speedlight. Pictures of family indoors, etc. To me, flash is where the fun is. Instead of just reacting to the light, you can make the light be like you want it.

Understood Wayne

I will have to attempt with whatever I have to start with, but if I was going to try to do it with stronger flash units, I assume that I'd need at least two?

Gorf said:

Understood Wayne

I will have to attempt with whatever I have to start with, but if I was going to try to do it with stronger flash units, I assume that I'd need at least two?

Click to expand...

Would not need two for brightness in almost any reasonable situation. Maybe two for better lighting, for main and fill concepts. If two, you would want to add umbrellas and stands, etc (another $135 US). And your commander could be very handy for multiple TTL lights.

But one hot shoe flash works great, esp as bounce or off camera. Flash is an exciting and big world, there is so much we can do.

I use one speedlight in one umbrella quite often, for routine snapshots around the house. Like to email to show a friend about something new, or about some problem I'm trying to fix, etc. So easy to do, and it makes a big difference in the picture.

Here is one, an email discussion to a friend about air nozzles for an air compressor. Quick snapshot, using one speedlight in a white reflected umbrella.




For example,
The $99 US (at Amazon) Yongnuo YN565EX does TTL, and at 24mm zoom, would be two stops brighter (4x) than the R1C1 pair.

At 50mm zoom, it is 3+ stops brighter (about 10x).

And I have not seen one, but the Neewer VK750 II has caught my eye. Essentially the same, power and fully featured (except it cannot be a Remote flash for the Nikon Commander - the YN565EX can), for only $55 US, and it is getting excellent user reviews on Amazon. Sure seems worth a gamble. Not a big gamble, as the $50 Neewer manual speedlights are almost legend, literally many hundreds of positive reviews on Amazon. Much online talk too, rave reviews. And the camera does the TTL work.

Except maybe arguably for macro, either of those should run circles around the $720 R1C1.

Just saying, there surely are vastly more people using speedlights for macro than are using R1C1. They work fine too, but you do have to do a bit extra about mounting and diffusing them.

And of course the $320 SB-700 does it all too, with slightly less power - about 1.4 stops more power than the R1C1 pair (at 24mm zoom - greater difference if zoomed longer).

Thanks Wayne, food for thought. I hadn't really considered that a single flash unit could do the job, but I believe it could now.

Edit: Just read a review on Amazon that indicates that an SB-900 could be used as a commander for the R1 flash kit?

Gorf said:

Thanks Wayne, food for thought. I hadn't really considered that a single flash unit could do the job, but I believe it could now.

Edit: Just read a review on Amazon that indicates that an SB-900 could be used as a commander for the R1 flash kit?

Click to expand...

Yes, and the SB-700 too. But your D810 camera Commander also does it. I see no reason more is needed.

There are minor differences, but nothing that would matter for macro.

The SB-900 can independently control three remote flashes, the camera internal flash only two (independently).

The SB-700 also two, but those two have to use the same flash mode. No problem for main and fill, but background or hair lights need to be manual flash mode.

Thanks for your reply

Flashes are a bit of a learning curve for me!

I thought that the camera commander could control a number of flash units but only in 2 groups, whereas the SU-800 advantage is that it can control 3 groups?

Gorf said:

Thanks for your reply

Flashes are a bit of a learning curve for me!

I thought that the camera commander could control a number of flash units but only in 2 groups, whereas the SU-800 advantage is that it can control 3 groups?

Click to expand...

Right, I hope that is what I said? The camera commander and the SB-700 commander can control two remote groups, A and B. On the SB-700, those two groups have to be the same flash mode (TTL or manual). You set one remote flash to be group A and the other to group B, then these correspond to the A and B in the commander menu. The flash has no other settings in this mode, all settings are in the Commander menu. You have individual control of both groups.

The SB-900 and SU-800 can control three remote groups, A, B, C. The flashes also have a builtin flash which is an additional group which is not Remote (except the SU-800 does not). We often optionally disable that internal flash (meaning, only use the commander, so that the on-camera flash does not contribute light to the scene).

Groups A, B, and C if it exists, are controlled independently, meaning, each TTL group preflash is metered independently, and power level is set accordingly, independently. The commander sets all flashes equal (as metered and delivered to the subject) by default, which is flat light, but just a starting point. The idea is that we can also compensate each group, like to set the fill light a stop or two less than the main light (we can control lighting ratio).

But if there are multiple flashes in one group (two flashes set as Group A), those all get the same command, so they are Not independent flashes (the Group is the independent entity). But if only one TTL flash per group, then the flashes are metered and controlled independently, including TTL and also your manual compensation settings. Or if a manual flash group, we can set power level for each manual group in the commander (it becomes just a trigger source then).

The advantage of the SU-800 is that has a red infrared filter on it, to block visible light (so it is not also a flash). All that command flashing normally causes the portrait subject to blink, and all we get is pictures of the blinks - almost guaranteed. FV Lock is a good work around to bypass that problem, or we could put a Nikon SG-3IR filter on the camera to block the visible light from the internal flash. The SU-800 already has that filter. Blinking is only a problem in human portraits, so no concern for inanimate stuff. The red filter does reduce the command intensity slightly, so the camera commander is a little stronger (more range) than the SU-800, unless you filter it too.

I just use the camera commander, it works fine, maybe even better now and then.


The commander system is pretty nice, makes multiple TTL flash easy (indoors), however it also has serious limitations. Less reliable in bright sun, commands cannot go through opaque objects (line of sight only, commander to flash), and it does not have the extreme range of radio triggers. System can only control 2 or 3 flashes, and sometimes we want more. Commander is incompatible with other manual flash gear, really including flash meters. Meaning, you simply cannot mix other gear into the Commander system. Nevertheless, it can be great and easy system for indoor pictures, like a couple of flashes in umbrellas for portraits or whatever. But don't get too carried away with too much investment, because as you grow and want a four light system, the Commander can't do that. Then you will want a manual flash system (and a flash meter).

But again, the commander is fantastic for a quick setup (almost automatic) two flash main and fill system.

Maybe start slow and see how it goes. The $99 Yongnuo YN565EX works well as a remote for the commander. Its continuous blinking focus assist light is an issue, but is easily covered over with a bit of tape. Two of those and a couple of umbrellas is all a D810 needs to have at it.


Seems to me, other than three remote groups, or maybe for a larger flash on-camera, the only purpose of a commander in a flash unit is to add a commander to camera models that do not have a commander. But those also do not have the FV Lock option, so they are going to discover significant problems, at least for TTL portraits. The Nikon SG-3IR filter is for the internal flash, not for hot shoe speedlights. But again, inanimate subjects don't blink.

If interested in the commander, maybe see Using the Nikon CLS Remote Wireless Flash System

If pursued, then a few links at my sig below could be of interest.

Very very interesting, thank you!

Back in my 35mm days, I started with a hotshoe flash, but then jumped straight to studio flash units as I was doing portraits & (cough) pets. This time around, my requirements will be macro, still life & whatever my wife as my artistic director comes up with - hence the old cottage!

Then you ought to have plenty of experience to just wade into it. I see now that my words were weakly written in a few places, omissions. You can of course use only one remote flash with the commander. But "lighting" in general really is better with two, the main/fill relationship, which it can do, very well. And digital is tremendously easier than film, because you can immediately see your result, and simply fix it.

I might add, you might as well count on Commander needing about +1 EV flash compensation too. Two equal lights added is one stop over exposed. It meters them individually, and it does not how how you will add them, so I think it always backs off. TTL BL is like that, and Commander is TTL BL. So just add it back with a routine +1EV flash compensation. As seen needed, but it will need it, so trying to prevent any surprise. And maybe -1.3EV for the fill light ratio. Just dial it in, all easy, no big deal. FV Lock is how you bypass the blinking.

I use a four light manual studio light setup for more serious stuff, which is quite a bit of work to set up and meter, but I also use the commander quite a bit for quick stuff, which is trivially easy. It is fantastic for a couple of TTL lights hurriedly thrown out there. Whatever you do (distance, or different flash units, or one is bounce, or in an umbrella...), it will try to make them equal at the subject. Which again, is a starting point, you just dial in a ratio. And of course, actually giving the lighting a bit of thought never hurts either.

Whether the R1C1 is used for macro or not, sure seems like everybody needs a speedlight for general purposes. Fill flash in bright sun, or bounce indoors is tremendous stuff too, or adding an umbrella is very nice. Only takes a minute to set it up. Two of them is even better lighting. Simple radio triggers or optical slaves work fine for manual lights, but the Commander makes two TTL lights be nothing. Throw them out there, then point&shoot. But there are limitations too, as mentioned before. It is line of sight, commander to the flashes. It does seem that if the flashes are near the camera, say five feet, even if behind the camera, they will still work fine. But at much distance, it needs to be line of sight, the flash sensors need to see the commander.

Great conversation! Been scouring Wayne's website for useful articles the past few nights, and this discussion helps bring it all together.

Wayne, if you find yourself in Dallas any time, I owe you a beverage of your choice. Same goes to you too, Gorf!

@WayneF
Thanks for the excellent information Wayne. You really have been a great help & got me thinking much more about lighting. I think seeing poor flash pictures tended to put me off the whole idea. The shots in your links show how it can be done well.

My 35mm experience is from 30 years ago & I have forgotten much, if not all of the technical detail, but retain some of the practical. Hence my occasional barrage of questions as I try to understand the new systems & apply that to my hazy knowledge from the past.

@RocketCowboy
You've been a great help to me on my journey into digital, making me think carefully about my first purchase. Thank you!

Following Wayne's excellent advice, I've been thinking further & would like to aim for both an R1C1 kit for indoor macro & small product shoots, also a larger speedlight & umbrella (maybe with a reflector) for the cottage shoot plus larger product shoots such as clothing. I'd add a 2nd speedlight & umbrella as funds allow.

I did a test of some clothing shots yesterday just using the on-camera flash (distance about 8' from the subject with sheet over a window on the right). The results were surprisingly ok, but ISO was high (f8, 1/80, ISO 1600). Although I could have dropped the aperture a stop, I'm assuming from that I need a stronger flash.

Here's the image - just to see what light I had: (please ignore the awful background cloth & that the product is against the background - creating a shadow)
View attachment 119074

To fix this, I'm thinking about an umbrella stand:

with a reflector:


I did think last night about going back to studio flash where I know what I'm doing. The issue for that is portability, so I'd like to stick with the speedlight route which I could use just about anywhere.

Which speedlight? I'm thinking of maybe the SB-700, I could also get a Yongnuo YN565EX at the same time (plus another umbrella) to give me a 2nd cheap unit that I can directly compare in use with the Nikon speedlight.

Suggestions are very welcome!

Gorf said:

Following Wayne's excellent advice, I've been thinking further & would like to aim for both an R1C1 kit for indoor macro & small product shoots, also a larger speedlight & umbrella (maybe with a reflector) for the cottage shoot plus larger product shoots such as clothing. I'd add a 2nd speedlight & umbrella as funds allow.

I did a test of some clothing shots yesterday just using the on-camera flash (distance about 8' from the subject with sheet over a window on the right). The results were surprisingly ok, but ISO was high (f8, 1/80, ISO 1600). Although I could have dropped the aperture a stop, I'm assuming from that I need a stronger flash.

Here's the image - just to see what light I had: (please ignore the awful background cloth & that the product is against the background - creating a shadow)
View attachment 119074

Click to expand...

The D810 internal flash spec has a guide number of 39 (feet). At ISO 1600, this is x4 or GN 156. At f/8, this allows GN156/f8 = 19.5 feet range at full power (as main light). It is not main light here though.

The window light is your major light... see neck shadow at models left collar, in fold near left collar, left side of right collar, under left arm, on left side of right leg. High lights on right side, etc. The window makes the shadows, fill flash is frontal and just does enough to try to lighten them a bit. All of that worked well.

The window was your major light. The high ISO insures that is true. Not a thing wrong with that, shadow gradients are a wonderful effect, pretty much the whole point. Just saying that in TTL mode in strong ambient, the internal flash is TTL BL mode, and as such is reduced full light, not the main light. I think next time, I might try to angle the model and the frontal camera angle slightly more toward the light, just a bit.

This TTL BL mode would be true of most speedights too (SB-700, YN565EX, etc), if using TTL mode (in presence of stronger ambient). Nikon is a TTL BL system, meaning, the flash is fill flash if there is ambient. You can select Spot Metering to force straight TTL mode, but the ambient complicates that considerably, since the ambient is what actually is Spot metered, and the high ISO makes it be the consideration. TTL BL just dials the flash power back to be lesser fill light level. The umbrella won't change that TTL aspect, but manual flash in an umbrella could.

TTL BL fill is good with major ambient like here. You can see the difference of what it actually does by shutting the flash door once for the same shot. Otherwise, you can use manual flash mode, and set it anyway you please. Overwhelm the window light if desired (not saying it is desired, just saying you have capabilities then, where as TTL is more point&shoot).

Lighting is a very big big subject, very many things are possible. Window light, reflectors, strong ambient or none, high ISO or not, umbrellas, manual or TTL flash, Commander... very many things can be done. Different subjects really though, it seems hard to combine it all into one sentence.




This is your histogram. Your color saturation would improve on this one if you raised the Levels Black point up to near where the data starts. This increases contrast to make the blacks be black instead of Gray. My 41 may be a bit much, but you see it as you go. This is a matter of preference, not a hard fact, but it is my preference.

To do this type of work, esp to insure the cloth colors are accurate, you need to get a white card to correct white balance. I am not saying this one is off much, but all are always off a little. I use a $5 Porta Brace White Card from B&H. I have more expensive WhiBal cards, which are good, but the Porta Brace is just as good. Even white paper or white linen cloth can work pretty well, much better than nothing.

Thank you for your patience Wayne, I really should have figured the lighting & TTL out for myself!

I will aim to get a couple umbrellas, at least one Nikon speedlite & maybe a Yongnuo. In future, I'll pay more attention to the natural light.