New to off-camera Flash Photography

Revet

Senior Member
Just starting off-camera flash photography. I have read, read, read and read more about it but it's time to shoot, shoot, shoot (to bad my camera is in for service).

Currently I have a D3100, two umbrella set-ups, and an SB-700. I want to start with some off flash portraits using the 700 off camera in SU-4 mode being optically driven with the on camera flash which I can use for fill. Being a techy, I think it is wise to learn the manual mode first before I go to TTL. Eventually I plan on upgrading to a D7100 with commander functionality and adding a 2nd SB-700 (timeline is 4 months tops before I get one of those, probably the D7100 first).

Before I buy the new goodies, is it worth it to purchase the Nikon SC-29 (about $74) to start messing with TTL or just wait until I get the D7100 or 2nd 700 which also has commander functionality? I realize this is a personal preference question which I can only answer myself with experience but I thought I would get some opinions here first.
 

Geoffc

Senior Member
If this is a learning exercise shooting manual flash, pick up some cheap wireless triggers. You want to avoid the on camera flash completely. Think about getting a meter at some point for manual flash.
 

FastGlass

Senior Member
I could be wrong but I don't think you can use the on camera flash as a commander and have it contribute to the exposure. It's either a commander or it acts like a normal flash, not both. While in commander mode the light coming from it won't contribute to the exposure at all even as fill.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
e).
Before I buy the new goodies, is it worth it to purchase the Nikon SC-29 (about $74) to start messing with TTL or just wait until I get the D7100 or 2nd 700 which also has commander functionality? I realize this is a personal preference question which I can only answer myself with experience but I thought I would get some opinions here first.

You will not need focus assist in any room with any normal room lights on. If you can see easily see the subject, the camera can easily focus on it. The flash can be much stronger to override the ambient, but unless a very unique and strange dark situation, it is just unthinkable to have any focus problem indoors in any halfway lighted room we live in. Go practice focusing in dim light to answer the question. :)

SC-29 is for dim or dark situations, where there is not enough light to focus.

Otherwise, the SC-28 is plenty to just have a cord. In fact, the old version SC-17 is plentiful on Ebay cheap. It is exactly same as SC-28, but does not have the new rotating pin lock in shoe. You don't need it, I've used two SC-17 cords for years. The pin is spring loaded, so you can just drop the pin regardless, and the flash is not going anywhere.

The cord allows TTL operation, and the cord itself can get you maybe four feet off camera. Further stretches the cord coils too tight, and tends to tip the light stand over.

But a strong beware... SB-700 is TTL BL default mode (unless Spot metering changes it to TTL). And TTL BL looks at D-lens distance unless the head is tilted. And the head is not tilted in an umbrella, and the umbrella simply is not the same distance and situation as direct flash, so such a hot shoe cord will give very incorrect exposures (TTL BL with head not tilted). It simply does not know it is not direct flash, and does not know about the umbrella.

Manual flash is not affected. Commander is not affected. But hot shoe TTL BL (including hot shoe extension cords) are affected.

Nikon instructions are to switch to TTL mode if using such a cable. The only way the SB-700 can do that is with Spot Metering. It does NOT do spot metering with flash, but Spot does change TTL BL flash to be TTL mode.



I could be wrong but I don't think you can use the on camera flash as a commander and have it contribute to the exposure. It's either a commander or it acts like a normal flash, not both. While in commander mode the light coming from it won't contribute to the exposure at all even as fill.

Sure, internal flash can do both, act as commander, and/or contribute to the exposure. Internal is just another group - two external groups and the one internal group. It works just the same, but just with much less power. If you don't want it to contribute to lighting, change (in commander menu) its group MODE from TTL to be instead "- -" (off). It still flashes commands, but does not contribute if off.
 
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Revet

Senior Member
Thanks for the great input on the SC-29. I just want something to do TTL to practice with after I master SU-4. I am sure I will have lots of practice with SU-4 before I look into the SC-17 or the D7100.

Thank you also Wayne on the 700 BL difference. Since that is the only flash I have ever owned it is pretty much 2nd nature to me (especially after reading the Four Fundamentals) in contrast to those switching from the 600 or 800 where you don't need to switch to spot to change from TTL-BL to TTL.

Outdoor Flash - TTL-BL on P mode; Indoor Flash - TTL on M (or A mode), There is still a little grey matter up there but declining faster than I would like!!
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Yeah, I fear newcomers who have only seen a SB-700 or SB-400 or internal flash (who have not seen a menu to select TTL vs TTL BL) may not get the difference.

TTL BL tries to automatically compensate the flash power lower in bright ambient light (called Balanced), like fill flash in sunlight becomes point&shoot. Same scene in TTL however, we have to compensate it manually, a couple of stops down from ambient.

Indoors (assuming ambient too dim to be much concerned with), TTL BL ought to try to stay out of the way, and become equivalent to TTL mode. But sometimes (intermediate room light intensity), it gives slightly less exposure than TTL mode. Which is no big deal, we always have to watch both, and do what we see we need to do, either way, both cases. Same procedure, just a slightly different starting point. For any iTTL flash, remember flash compensation, and do what you see you need to do to get what you want.


To trigger multiple iTTL flashes off camera, the Commander is required (if more than one iTTL flash). Only way for multiple iTTL (Commander will be TTL BL too, but commander knows it is off camera, and ignores the D-lens distance situation, it is not a problem. But hot shoe does not know.)

Otherwise (not commander), a TTL BL flash off camera with head not tilted up will still be affected by the camera thinking the D-lens distance also applies to the flash, but which is at a different distance and different situation, maybe in an umbrella, but unknown to camera, who is still thinking "D-lens distance" and hot shoe direct flash.

An umbrella using a hot shoe cable instead of Commander absolutely needs to get out of TTL BL mode (because head is not tilted up, and D-lens distance will mess it up). With the SB-700, the way to do that is either Spot Metering, or tilt the head, or Manual flash.

Again, Spot metering is about the ambient, the flash is still the same and is NOT doing Spot metering, but it does switch it out of Balanced flash mode, because then there is no metered ambient backgrond to balance. So flash simply becomes TTL mode. No Balanced effect.

Triggering:

For one single flash off camera, TTL will require the hot shoe type of cord (SC-28 etc, four shoe pins for CLS communication, basically still hot shoe). Or it could use Commander.

For one or multiple Manual flash off camera, then a few ways...

Optical slaves
Radio triggers
PC sync cord,
all in any combination. The one triggered manual flash can also be on a SC-28 type cord, or the internal flash in Manual mode.

Commander becomes NOT a possibility for mixed multiple manual flash... We cannot mix Commander with real Manual mode gear - not optical slaves, not flash meters, not radio triggers, not PC sync cords, etc. Choose one or the other system (Commander or Manual), and go with it, all the way.
 
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Revet

Senior Member
Yes I agree, well said. Everything is fine Wayne until you get to the final statement,

" Commander becomes NOT a possibility for mixed multiple manual flash... We cannot mix Commander with real Manual mode gear - not optical slaves, not flash meters, not radio triggers, not PC sync cords, etc. Choose one or the other system (Commander or Manual), and go with it, all the way.

I think what you are saying there is that you can't mix manual with commnander TTL in a multiple flash situation correct?? But from what I have read in the SB-700 manual and unfortunately have not been able to practice yet (since I don't have two flashes), you can use many flashes in TTL mode with a commander. I would think this would be a nice place to start if you are shooting in a new location (not in your well known and well tested studio). Then if you don't like what you get, change to manual. Just wanted to clarify that this is correct.

Joe, thanks for the tip on the Stobist, I'll check that out once I get my camera back from Nikon. I have to stop reading for a while until I can play around with what I read; otherwise I will forget it.

Geoff - I agree I need to start with just one flash off camera in manual and become familiar with that but eventually wouldn't using the on-camera flash be an option for some fill light on the subjects face if wanted in addition to the main off camera flash?
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
Yes I agree, well said. Everything is fine Wayne until you get to the final statement,

" Commander becomes NOT a possibility for mixed multiple manual flash... We cannot mix Commander with real Manual mode gear - not optical slaves, not flash meters, not radio triggers, not PC sync cords, etc. Choose one or the other system (Commander or Manual), and go with it, all the way.

I think what you are saying there is that you can't mix manual with commnander TTL in a multiple flash situation correct??

Yes, correct - Not in Any situation, TTL or Manual or whatever. It is a very big deal. The Nikon Commander is incompatible with regular Manual flash gear. It is its own very different system. Commander puts out many command signal flashes which greatly interfere with optical slaves and flash meters. The internal flash door open blocks any hot shoe use, and it disables PC sync ports, etc. OK, some have discovered a specific loop hole or two, for very specific combinations/cases, but it is not the way you would work, and it simply is NOT the way to attempt do realistic work. We should simply choose to use one or the other system - either Commander or a real Manual flash system. The Commander system is ten years old, and is well known.

But from what I have read in the SB-700 manual and unfortunately have not been able to practice yet (since I don't have two flashes), you can use many flashes in TTL mode with a commander. I would think this would be a nice place to start if you are shooting in a new location (not in your well known and well tested studio). Then if you don't like what you get, change to manual. Just wanted to clarify that this is correct.

Yes, you could put several flashes into one Commander Group (A, B, or C - to call all of them Group B for example). However, then they all flash their preflash at the same instant, and are metered together, and all receive the same signals (power level) and all do the same thing, in mass as a group (it is called a Group). Which is NOT individual control. No way to tweak any one of them individually (except their distance and modifiers). Might be suitable for some uses, but not for portraits. Normally, we want one light in each group we use, for the individual control.

Joe McNally for example, favors FP flash mode (HSS) for outdoor portraits, and his videos show that he gangs 4 or 5 SB-910 in one umbrella, working as one, to get sufficient power level (back up to one regular flashes power level). That would be one group. All are controlled as one, all are acting as one.

Most commanders (internal flash or SB-700 commanders) can only individually control two remote groups, A or B. The SB-800/SB-900 and SU-800 can individually control three remote groups (A, B, C), but this is not "many flashes", and not even sufficient for a standard four light portrait setup. Normally each light is in its own group, so it can be set to a different power level (for Manual flash, we use a handheld meter and Manual flash to do that - but a flash meter is not compatible with all the Commander flashing).
 
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