SB-910 paired with D600 having trouble with flash sync

I love photography but am definitely an amateur trying to learn my way around.....

I recently purchased a SB-910 to use with my D600. I also purchased a Yongnuo wireless flash trigger. Playing around with it today I am having some trouble. I have my D600 set to High speed sync mode (1/250 (auto FP)) in my menu settings and while experimenting with some low key style lighting I am getting major banding (don't know if I'm using the right term) across the lower half to lower third of the frame, its just all black. Only happens at 1/200 and 1/250 and above. Anything less then that and the exposure is fine.

In case it matters I am just using the flash by itself and set it on the table with the flash stand.

If I use the flash in optical slave mode and trigger it off camera with my pop up camera flash then everything works fine? Shutter speeds higher then 1/200th of a second don't give the exposure any banding.

Needless to say I am thoroughly confused. Don't know if I'm off on my camera/flash settings maybe? I would love to know what I am doing wrong. Thanks in advance.

Matt

Perhaps I'm missing something but is the SB-910 set to FP mode? You mentioned having the camera isn Auto FP but the flash needs to also be set to FP mode.

Using the flash with the wireless Yongnuo triggers, off camera, I cannot put the SB-910 into FP mode.... Unless I'm doing something wrong.

Then that sounds like the problem. Some triggers (many of them are the ebay and Chinese triggers) don't give you sync above a certain speed and many fall short of the camera manufacturers flash sync speed. I'm not sure that's what is happening in this case but I've seen many third party wireless triggers that give you a clean frame at 1/125s or 1/160s and anything above will introduce shutter curtain in the frame.

Robert Mitchell said:

Then that sounds like the problem. Some triggers (many of them are the ebay and Chinese triggers) don't give you sync above a certain speed and many fall short of the camera manufacturers flash sync speed. I'm not sure that's what is happening in this case but I've seen many third party wireless triggers that give you a clean frame at 1/125s or 1/160s and anything above will introduce shutter curtain in the frame.

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Great, I think you may be on to something!! Just looked at a couple sites and while my Yongnuo's are rated up to 1/250, many say they fall short of that so that could be the problem. Maybe I'll return them and just use a Tll cable to my hot shoe. I'm guessing that might give me the best results until I save enough for a better wireless system.

The camera needs extra communication with the flash to put it into FP mode. Nikon CLS is basically a set of features using that communication - communication is the key feature. The hot shoe and flash foot have the extra pins for that communication (and the Commander can relay it too).

The radio trigger cannot, it cannot relay any communication, other than it is a one pin interface which can only relay the large center pin which makes the flash fire. Nothing more.

Even in regular flash mode, some radio triggers are not always as fast as the camera. I don't know about that one, but not all can do 1/250 second regular sync. Also it is a common problem that they can get much slower when their batteries need to be replaced.

You could simply use the camera commander to get remote FP mode on the SB-910. The FP mode flash only has short range, so Commander issues seem less likely then.

Or, the SC-28 type hot shoe extension cords can relay this communication, including FP mode. However, the SC-18 type "TTL cables" are for film TTL, and cannot do iTTL. There is no TTL cable for iTTL (other than the hot shoe extension cords).

I am no expert but I would definitly say that the problem is with your triggers not syncing at high speeds as has been said. I have Calumet triggers and I think they allow me to sync up to 1/200th. To be honest, you have an SB-910 and a D600 so I would just use CLS unless you are having signal problems due to the positioning of the speedlight. I know not everyone loves it but I think Nikon's CLS is fantastic. Sure if you dont want to use iTTL then change over to manual.

I have to warn you, now that you have started playing with off-camera flash be prepared to give your credit card a hard time. I started out with a couple of cheap Yongnuo speedlights but have since sold them and bought an SB-910, SB-900 and YN-560EX plus many different light modifiers. If my wife thought I had even spent half that I have she would have killed me by now I'm living on borrowed time and loving it. Looking forward to seeing what you do with your light(s).

simonhodge said:

I am no expert but I would definitly say that the problem is with your triggers not syncing at high speeds as has been said. I have Calumet triggers and I think they allow me to sync up to 1/200th. To be honest, you have an SB-910 and a D600 so I would just use CLS unless you are having signal problems due to the positioning of the speedlight. I know not everyone loves it but I think Nikon's CLS is fantastic. Sure if you dont want to use iTTL then change over to manual.

I have to warn you, now that you have started playing with off-camera flash be prepared to give your credit card a hard time. I started out with a couple of cheap Yongnuo speedlights but have since sold them and bought an SB-910, SB-900 and YN-560EX plus many different light modifiers. If my wife thought I had even spent half that I have she would have killed me by now I'm living on borrowed time and loving it. Looking forward to seeing what you do with your light(s).

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Well I returned the Yongnuo stuff and like you said I am just going to stick to Nikon stuff. Just ordered the SU-800 from Amazon so I didn't pay attention to your warning LOL!!. My wife doesn't know i ordered it yet All this high speed sync stuff is more then I need to worry about right now, however I enjoy playing will all this gear as I try to work through all the nuances of flash photography. Thanks!!

Actually D600 X-sync speed is rated at 1/200s. So if you set shutter speed at 1/250s it will definitely give you the black band at the bottom. 1/200s will also not guarantee a clean picture. The practice is to usually set it slightly below the max X-sync speed. For D700 where x-sync is 1/250s, I usually leave my shutter at 1/200s.

This is not only for the Yongnuos, but you will also need to do the same for studio strobes or any other manual flash. Even when you use Nikon speedlights in manual mode, you need to do the same.

Hope this helps.

I've always found that the camera's max sync speed will always produce a clean frame with a branded Speedlight.

Studio strobes are not designed to sync at camera's max sync speed and the only way to know your max sync speed is to test it with the camera, triggers and strobe you plan to use.

With my D700 and SB-900 I can shoot at max sync speed with no problem at all and I do not have to back off the shutter speed. With a third party flash, that's a different story.

With strobes, for instance, my Elinchrom strobes are rated to sync at 1/160s and with a Nikon body and almost any trigger you can achieve 1/160s and get a perfectly clean frame. However, if I replace the Elinchrom Skyport trigger with a Pocket Wizard Plus, Plus II or Plus III, I'm able to sync at 1/200 and maintain a perfectly clean frame.

The best way to test your max sync speed with any camera/flash/trigger combination is to shoot a white wall or white background at various shutter speeds. Shooting on white will show even the slightest vignetting or shutter curtain creeping in to the frame.

Robert Mitchell said:

I've always found that the camera's max sync speed will always produce a clean frame with a branded Speedlight.

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Me too. The D300, D7000, D700, D800 actually provide and allow a 1/320 second sync, which almost works (usually works), but those formal sync specifications are still 1/250 second. I have seen a hint of the black band starting on D300 at 1/320 second if at maximum speedlight power, but lower powers seems to work fine. I cannot duplicate that same problem on the D800, it has a faster shutter.

Outdoors in sun, where we may need the faster shutter, I doubt a minor band could ever be noticed.

I agree, Wayne. When I'm shooting outdoors in bright light or where the edge of the frame is already dark, I can always get away with 1/250s with my pocket wizards and Elinchrom strobes. If the edge is dark and my subject is centered or no where near the edge I can push it to 1/320s but I'm very careful about doing so.

Robert Mitchell said:

I agree, Wayne. When I'm shooting outdoors in bright light or where the edge of the frame is already dark, I can always get away with 1/250s with my pocket wizards and Elinchrom strobes. If the edge is dark and my subject is centered or no where near the edge I can push it to 1/320s but I'm very careful about doing so.

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When I am using my Elinchroms with plusII, at 1/250s on the D700, i usually see the start of some darkness at the bottom of the frame. At 1/200s itis totally fine.

If I use miniTTL/FlexTT5, I can get over 1/320, but this due to the new hypersync technology from Pocketwizard. With SB900/910, I have been able to achieve 1/500 sync speed (without FP mode) easily with hypersync.

daredevil123 said:

When I am using my Elinchroms with plusII, at 1/250s on the D700, i usually see the start of some darkness at the bottom of the frame. At 1/200s itis totally fine.

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That is not the camera or flash, that is delay in your radio trigger (it is common in many radio triggers).
Bypass the radio trigger (PC sync cord or optical slave or direct hot shoe, etc), and you will see full sync speed.

Not with strobes that are not rated to sync at those speeds. My Elinchrom's won't sync any faster with a sync cord than with my Skyports or Pocket Wizards. Can't make them go faster than they can go.

Robert Mitchell said:

Not with strobes that are not rated to sync at those speeds. My Elinchrom's won't sync any faster with a sync cord than with my Skyports or Pocket Wizards. Can't make them go faster than they can go.

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Hopefully that speed is also the cameras sync rating, because I am certain the PC sync cords, optical slaves, and hot shoe can all do it. Radio triggers, maybe not always.

Electronic flashes are X sync (xenon), zero delay, there is no other rating. Most flashes are very fast (short duration), much shorter duration than any usable shutter speed (speedlights for example, but studio lights too). X sync zero delay just means the shutter simply has to be open when the flash is triggered. The assumption is that the flash is not delayed by a radio trigger. Open means fully open, but which never happens if faster than the shutter's sync speed. That is simply what focal plane maximum sync speed is, fastest shutter that is fully and completely open all at one time to allow the zero delay flash through it. Flash duration does not affect this, except some flashes are slower, and if slow enough, may not totally finish before the shutter duration starts to close. That is not a "sync" problem, shutter just starts closing and does not see all the light from the flash.

Elinchrom specifies a max sync speed in their strobes and 1/160s is that rating. I understand what you're saying but that's the spec that Elinchrom uses and regardless of your trigger that does not change. I've done a lot of testing and had determined early on that I gain nothing by using a sync cord over a radio trigger. The small delay that does occur isn't contributing to the visible shutter curtain that you see once you're 1/3 stop past that max specified sync speed.

Robert Mitchell said:

Elinchrom specifies a max sync speed in their strobes and 1/160s is that rating.

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This spec is on their strobe, or on their radio trigger? Can you point me to where I can see that said?

That spec is for the strobes, not the triggers. I'll have to hunt for the place I saw it published.

The Speed mode is what enables the newer Speed-enabled strobes will sync up to 1/250s but without it they spec the lights at 1/160s. I'll find it and post.

Thanks, I would like to see that. My notion is that the "Speed Mode" is clearly a delay property of their Skyport radio trigger, and not about the flash at all.

Flash sync today is not even about the flash. Today it is about the focal plane shutter, about when that shutter slot is fully open over the full frame at any one instant, so that the shutter can accept a flash. It is about when the flash can be fired through the shutter, which means at shutter speeds up until "maximum sync speed". This is about that focal plane shutter, and which flash is fired does not matter (I exclude FP or HSS flash mode, which is continuous light, not even flash, which is triggered before the shutter opens).

So X sync is instantaneous, however any delay added by a radio trigger is not a good thing for maximum sync speed. It is a well known problem.

In the old days of flash bulbs, flash sync meant something else. Cameras used to have F and M sync modes (Fast, Medium) selecting a 5 to 20 ms range delay, before the flash bulb fully ignited and came to full brightness, when the shutter could be triggered. All that was about the flash bulb. But electronic flash changed all that, X sync is zero ms delay, and the focal plane shutter becomes the issue.

FP or HSS sync mode is nothing new. Old focal plane shutters (60 or 70 years ago, and probably longer) had a FP sync mode, for longer burning FP flash bulbs, which was the same idea and purpose as the FP or HSS modes today.