Shoot RAW!

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WeeHector

Senior Member
I bought my first Nikon (D3100) early 2013 and set it to jpeg fine. I did lots of macro with it and ended up with some spectacular results. At the beginning of June, I decided to upgrade to a D3300 and made the decision to buy a big memory card (64GB) and shoot in RAW. I mostly do wildlife photography and took a subscription for Photoshop and Lightroom and I can say, I haven't regretted my decision.

If you are going to buy an amazing camera with a 24MP sensor, then what is the point of leaving it in 1st gear? Leaving the camera to transform your 20MB masterpiece into a 3MB file is just ridiculous. If, like me, you do nature photograph, you will soon find that the camera drains the life out of the picture during the transformation to jpeg. It's even worse than when you transform a RAW shot to jpeg.

Buy yourself a decent size card and shoot RAW. The few brilliant shots you take will be all the better for it.
 
As my skills improve with post processing improve I have gone back and reviewed old photos that I have processed before and some that I deemed not good enough to work on in the past. With new skills and programing I have been able to improve some on the previously done photos and pull out some great photos out of what I thought I would never get anything out of.

All because I SHOOT RAW and do not delete all my rejected photos.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
I read somewhere on the Intarwebs that a raw file loses (on average) 70% of its data when converted to a JPG image. Seventy... Percent... Of the image data lost forever. I've shot nothing but raw for a long time but that statistic made my jaw drop.

I delete my Rejects because some shots are clearly not worth trying to salvage. They're just not. Post-processing can do wonders but you've got to have something decent to work with in the first place and many shots of mine simply don't have that. I don't see the point in keeping thousands of shots I'll probably never look again in hopes that maybe, one day, some gem of a shot will rise from its ashes if I spend hours tweaking it to perfection.
 
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I read somewhere on the Intarwebs that a raw file loses (on average) 70% of its data when converted to a JPG image. Seventy... Percent... Of the image data lost forever. I've shot nothing but raw for a long time but that statistic made my jaw drop.

I delete my Rejects because some shots are clearly not worth trying to salvage. They're just not. Post-processing can do wonders but you've got to have something decent to work with in the first place and many shots of mine simply don't have that. I don't see the point in keeping thousands of shots I'll probably never look again in hopes that maybe, one day, some gem of a shot will rise from its ashes if I spend hours tweaking it to perfection.


I do delete the really bad ones that are true misses.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
I've never shot RAW in my entire life.

I have, however, shot raw.

I read somewhere on the Intarwebs that a raw file loses (on average) 70% of its data when converted to a JPG image............

One can merely compare the size of two files, the .NEF and the .JPG, of one image. For instance, the first one on my screen when I read this was:

JPEG: 15,804,008
NEF: 24,174,417

That ciphers out to 65% loss.
 
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RobV

Senior Member
I don't know if this is true, but until I can afford a PS/Lightroom subscription, I'm not sure that there is much I can do with my NEF files with my Adobe Elements 2.0. Actually, it is an invalid file type. Same result with ViewNX 2.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
You should still shoot raw. Once you can afford the software, your files will still be there waiting for you.

ITMT, shoot raw+JPG.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
I don't know if this is true, but until I can afford a PS/Lightroom subscription, I'm not sure that there is much I can do with my NEF files with my Adobe Elements 2.0. Actually, it is an invalid file type. Same result with ViewNX 2.
The .NEF codec used by the D5300 is probably more recent than what your software supports.

View NX2, for instance, has been replaced by Capture NX-D which would support your D5300 .NEF files.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
One can merely compare the size of two files, the .NEF and the .JPG, of one image. For instance, the first one on my screen when I read this was:

JPEG: 15,804,008
NEF: 24,174,417

That ciphers out to 65% loss.

I'm just teasing about the numbers, but fearing someone may believe you, I have to say think again... :)

I'm all for shooting 100% raw, but actually, the raw is Not viewable as is. So what loss?

Plus raw is (probably) 12 bits per pixels, and the converted JPG is 24 bits per pixels. So that's 100% larger, it's no data loss.

Now JPG compression will reduce the file size, but not technically the data size, since we always get back all 24 bits per pixel when uncompressed into memory.

Shooting raw and processing JPG seems the best way to go. :)
 

480sparky

Senior Member
I'm just teasing about the numbers, but fearing someone may believe you, I have to say think again... :)

I'm all for shooting 100% raw, but actually, the raw is Not viewable as is. So what loss?

Plus raw is (probably) 12 bits per pixels, and the converted JPG is 24 bits per pixels. So that's 100% larger, it's no data loss.

Now JPG compression will reduce the file size, but not technically the data size, since we always get back all 24 bits per pixel when uncompressed into memory.

Shooting raw and processing JPG seems the best way to go. :)


Would not 12-bit raw actually be 36-bits per pixel? At least at the editing stage........ 12 bits of each color channel. JPEG is only 8 bits per color.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
Plus raw is (probably) 12 bits per pixels, and the converted JPG is 24 bits per pixels. So that's 100% larger, it's no data loss.
If you want to look at a JPG as being 24-bit color because you're combining all three 8-bit color channels, you have to do the same for the color channel information stored in the raw file. Three 12-bit color channels would result in 36-bit color using your method. Not too mention most of us who shoot raw are probably shooting 14-bit raw files which would result in 42-bit color by your method. Just because you can't "view" the color doesn't mean the color information of a raw file isn't there.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
Would not 12-bit raw actually be 36-bits per pixel? At least at the editing stage........ 12 bits of each color channel. JPEG is only 8 bits per color.

I didn't realize this was a serious discussion...

No, raw is 12 bit pixels, but raw is only one color per pixel (red OR green OR blue sensor cells in a Bayer pattern), but raw is NOT three RGB colors per pixel, not until color is interpolated from adjacent pixels to create 24 bit JPG which is RGB.

24 megapixels as 12 bit raw is 24 x 1000000 x 1.5 bytes per pixel = 36 million bytes = 34.3 MB data

24 megapixels as 24 bit JPG is 24 x 1000000 x 3 bytes per pixel = 72 million bytes = 68.7 MB data. Then JPG file compression makes much smaller files, possibly about 1/4 to 1/12 that size while in the JPG file. But it will be 68.7 MB again when uncompressed into memory again.

Calculator at Pixels, Printers, Video - What's With That?

So JPG pixels are interpolated RGB color from at least two adjacent raw pixels, which is arguably a lower spatial resolution, but raw pixels are only one color (which is that lower detail, lower than we might imagine), and of course, raw is otherwise unusable until this JPG is created.

This part seems a pointless debate since the camera sensor is always raw. Raw is what the camera will create, one 12 bit color per pixel. The only choice is if we choose to have the camera create JPG from it, or if we wait until our raw software does the same thing later. The advantage of shooting raw and waiting is that it allows us to see the image first, before we otherwise have to simply guess in advance about white balance or color profile settings. So we can SEE, and decide and know (and even change our minds) about best settings, and do this while still 16 bits in computer memory. Then either way, we are going to get 24 bit JPG files. But we still retain our raw advantages, and can go back anytime and decide different choices.


If you want to look at a JPG as being 24-bit color because you're combining all three 8-bit color channels, you have to do the same for the color channel information stored in the raw file. Three 12-bit color channels would result in 36-bit color using your method. Not too mention most of us who shoot raw are probably shooting 14-bit raw files which would result in 42-bit color by your method. Just because you can't "view" the color doesn't mean the color information of a raw file isn't there.

Raw does have three 12 bit color channels, but these "channels" involve the spatial resolution of at least three adjacent sensor pixels (one red, one green, and one blue, which is from three pixels). Each sensor pixel is only one color per pixel. At least three spatial pixels are interpolated into each one JPG pixel, which is RGB then. So this recreates some color resolution in each pixel, but it loses spatial resolution. Saying, every output pixel detail from raw is distributed from among three image pixels. And this always happens regardless of when the JPG is created.

The Sigma Fovean sensors are exceptions with a depth of three layers of cells, so three color layers like color film layers, which is three colors per pixel. I think there are other disadvantages though.
 
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My RAW files are 14 bit. It gives you the choice in the menu to shoot 12 bit or 14 bit compressed or uncompressed.

From the Nikon Site
File format

  • NEF (RAW): 12 or 14 bit, lossless compressed or compressed
  • JPEG: JPEG-Baseline compliant with fine (approx. 1:4), normal (approx. 1:8) or basic (approx. 1:16) compression (Size priority); Optimal quality compression available
Nikon | Imaging Products | Nikon D750

I would bet this is the case for the majority of the Nikon cameras
 

WayneF

Senior Member
You're saying raw is 12-bit, but JPEG is 24 bit? I guess I don't understand your math.

JPEG is 8-bit. Period.

No, JPG is 8 bit "color" (each color is 8 bits), but three RGB colors per pixel, so 24 bit pixels. 24 megapixels compute 72 million bytes of RGB data (3 bytes per pixel).

Raw is 12 bit pixels, of one color. 24 megapixels compute 36 million bytes of data. (1.5 bytes per pixel). But not usable (meaning not viewable) as is. The camera can create 24 bit JPG from it. Or we can do it later in our raw computer software.

See Bayer filter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter
 
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480sparky

Senior Member
No, JPG is 8 bit "color" (each color is 8 bits), but three RGB colors per pixel, so 24 bit pixels. 24 megapixels compute 72 million bytes of data (3 bytes per pixel).

Raw is 12 bit pixels, of one color. 24 megapixels compute 36 million bytes of data. (1.5 bytes per pixel). But not usable (not viewable) as is. We can create 24 bit JPG from it.

See Bayer filter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter

But...... it takes 3 colors (8 each of red, green and blue) to create a 24-bit JPEG, no? So with 12-bit raws, there'd be 12-bits of Red, 12-bits of Green and 12-bits of Blue. Last time I went to skule, that ciphers up to 36.

You can't just say a single sensor pixel is 12-bit, so the final decomposed pixel is 12-bit because if you used only one sensor pixel to create one image pixel, it would only be one shade of red, green or blue. You need to add the other two colors (along with their 12-bits of color data) to make an 8-bit )or in your case, 24-bit) RGB impage pixel.
 
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