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  1. #21
    Senior Member
    480sparky's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    ....... I think we may be talking about two different things here. The crop factor is just how much the FOV changes compared to full frame. The lens is not zooming in any more, it's simply showing a crop of what you'd see on a FF camera..........
    We are. You're referring to resolution.


    › See More: DX Mode
    Don't mind me... I'm out roaming around somewhere between Zone III and VII.


    Go forth and actuate!


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  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Horoscope Fish's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    I've done a lot of reading on this topic. If there is no difference in pixel density, there is no difference in "reach", period. I think we may be talking about two different things here. The crop factor is just how much the FOV changes compared to full frame. The lens is not zooming in any more, it's simply showing a crop of what you'd see on a FF camera

    Reach, OTOH, is how many pixels I can put on target (bird, deer, whatever). To me, that's the real advantage of using a DX camera with high px density. It's discussed more here, but I agree with this guy's post:

    "My point is that a discussion of the "reach" advantages of a format can only be effective if the participants have a common understanding of the term. The problem arises because, unlike photographic terms such as "f/stop" or "pixel count", "reach" does not have a single, universally-agreed definition.
    My impression is that the most common definition of "reach" as it applies to digital image capture is that of "pixels on the duck", because that determines the maximum print or display size, but as this thread has shown, others have a different view."

    https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thre...-post-59893935
    You can listen to those bone heads on DP Review if you so choose, but @480sparky is absolutely correct. Crop Factor relates to sensor size. Period. Pixel Density is an entirely different topic and trying to compare the two is akin to comparing meatloaf to butterflies.

    The people at B&H Photo Video have one of the best explanations on this topic I've found: Understanding Crop Factor. If you read the entire article from top to bottom you'll notice it never mentions pixel density. Not. Even. Once. Why? Because Pixel Density has absolutely NOTHING to do with Crop Factor. The people DP Review can talk about "pixels on the duck" all they want, they can call it whatever they want, call it pan-seared filet mignon if that's what does it for you but the facts remain the same: Crop Factor is tied to sensor-size, and Crop Factor and Pixel Density are two unrelated things.

    Now, should you decide to dispute things in light of this article I wish you fair winds and following seas!
    ~ Paul
    ....
    ....
    Primary Kit :: D750 (OLPF Removed), MB-D10; Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 Di VC USD G2, Tamron 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD, Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art,
    Yongnuo Flashes & Triggers, Manfrotto X055PROB, 3-Legged Thing Airhed II... All Stuffed into a Manfrotto Pro Backpack 50
    ....
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  3. #23
    Senior Member
    ISOhappy's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    DX Mode
    Quote Originally Posted by Horoscope Fish View Post
    You can listen to those bone heads on DP Review if you so choose, but @480sparky is absolutely correct. Crop Factor relates to sensor size. Period. Pixel Density is an entirely different topic and trying to compare the two is akin to comparing meatloaf to butterflies.

    The people at B&H Photo Video have one of the best explanations on this topic I've found: Understanding Crop Factor. If you read the entire article from top to bottom you'll notice it never mentions pixel density. Not. Even. Once. Why? Because Pixel Density has absolutely NOTHING to do with Crop Factor. The people DP Review can talk about "pixels on the duck" all they want, they can call it whatever they want, call it pan-seared filet mignon if that's what does it for you but the facts remain the same: Crop Factor is tied to sensor-size, and Crop Factor and Pixel Density are two unrelated things.

    Now, should you decide to dispute things in light of this article I wish you fair winds and following seas!
    Fine. Crop factor is related to sensor size. It gives you a different FOV. I think everyone can agree on that. Maybe the OP will chime in, but I think he was asking about reach. That's where pixel density comes in. Pixel density is one huge reason why wildlife photogs use DX cameras. The end result is that I can get shots on my D500 with a 500mm lens that would require a 750mm lens on an FX camera (except in the case of the D850 because it nearly matches the pixel density).

    They say a picture says a thousand words, so here is a demo. I just took these shots through my back window (forgive the quality). First are the full-frame shots from a D750 (top) and a D500 (second from top). As you can see, the crop sensor on the D500 is simply giving me a cropped version of the D750 shot. Next are 100% crops. The D500 crop is surely giving me what I'd call more reach. Why is that? It's because the pixel density is much higher than that of the D750. If this isn't clear enough, then I'm afraid that's all the explaining I can do. In a wildlife situation where we can only get so close to the subject, the camera with the higher pixel density is king, and the extra "reach" it gives is a very real thing.

    DX Mode-d750.jpgDX Mode-d500.jpgDX Mode-d750-crop-copy.jpgDX Mode-500-crop-copy.jpg

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    480sparky's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    ....... If this isn't clear enough, then I'm afraid that's all the explaining I can do. In a wildlife situation where we can only get so close to the subject, the camera with the higher pixel density is king, and the extra "reach" it gives is a very real thing......
    You are explaining it just fine. We all get it. But it's not what 99.999999999% of us consider 'reach'. We call it resolution.
    Don't mind me... I'm out roaming around somewhere between Zone III and VII.


    Go forth and actuate!


    My Website.

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Horoscope Fish's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    Fine. Crop factor is related to sensor size. It gives you a different FOV. I think everyone can agree on that. Maybe the OP will chime in, but I think he was asking about reach. That's where pixel density comes in. Pixel density is one huge reason why wildlife photogs use DX cameras. The end result is that I can get shots on my D500 with a 500mm lens that would require a 750mm lens on an FX camera (except in the case of the D850 because it nearly matches the pixel density).

    They say a picture says a thousand words, so here is a demo. I just took these shots through my back window (forgive the quality). First are the full-frame shots from a D750 (top) and a D500 (second from top). As you can see, the crop sensor on the D500 is simply giving me a cropped version of the D750 shot. Next are 100% crops. The D500 crop is surely giving me what I'd call more reach. Why is that? It's because the pixel density is much higher than that of the D750. If this isn't clear enough, then I'm afraid that's all the explaining I can do. In a wildlife situation where we can only get so close to the subject, the camera with the higher pixel density is king, and the extra "reach" it gives is a very real thing.

    DX Mode-d750.jpgDX Mode-d500.jpgDX Mode-d750-crop-copy.jpgDX Mode-500-crop-copy.jpg
    The only difference I see in your photos is the subject (the transformer, the sign ON the transformer) is more frame-filling on shots where the crop-sensor was used.

    That the subject is more frame filling (all other things being equal), as compared to how frame-filling the same shot is compared to the full-frame sensor is, to me, getting more "reach". If you care to explain your definition of "reach", I'm all ears.

    More importantly I, or anyone else, could duplicate those results using ANY full-frame sensor camera compared to ANY crop-sensor (1.5x crop factor assumed) camera because the crop factor, which results in more "reach", or more of the frame being filled with the subject (all other things being equal), is tied to the size of the sensor.
    Last edited by Horoscope Fish; 10-15-2017 at 09:56 PM.
    ~ Paul
    ....
    ....
    Primary Kit :: D750 (OLPF Removed), MB-D10; Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 Di VC USD G2, Tamron 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD, Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art,
    Yongnuo Flashes & Triggers, Manfrotto X055PROB, 3-Legged Thing Airhed II... All Stuffed into a Manfrotto Pro Backpack 50
    ....
    ....
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  6. #26
    Senior Member
    ISOhappy's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    DX Mode
    Quote Originally Posted by Horoscope Fish View Post
    The only difference I see in your photos is the subject (the transformer, the sign ON the transformer) is more frame-filling on shots where the crop-sensor was used.

    That the subject is more frame filling (all other things being equal), as compared to how frame-filling the same shot is compared to the full-frame sensor is, to me, getting more "reach". If you care to explain your definition of "reach", I'm all ears.

    More importantly I, or anyone else, could duplicate those results using ANY full-frame sensor camera compared to ANY crop-sensor (1.5x crop factor assumed) camera because the crop factor, which results in more "reach", or more of the frame being filled with the subject (all other things being equal), is tied to the size of the sensor.
    I suppose my definition of reach is—a larger final image. Imagine that sign on the transformer were a bird. If the distance I shot it from is the closest I can get, the bird is going to be bigger in the DX image. Also, because the pixel density is higher, there's going to be a lot more detail. Look at how much clearer the D500 crop is.

    Here are the two crops again. This time, I cropped the D750 image to give (roughly) the same framing as the D500 crop. The final D750 crop is only 0.34 MP, while the D500 crop is 0.77 MP. This is what I call more reach. Unfortunately, I don't think you can duplicate that with any full frame camera. You'd have to have a FF camera that matched the px density of the D500. Now, you could enlarge the D750 crop so it's the same MP as the D500 crop, but that's just going to make it look even blurrier. This is why I shoot a D500 when I need "reach."

    DX Mode-500.jpgDX Mode-750.jpg

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    ISOhappy's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    DX Mode
    It's hard to see the relative sizes in the post above, but here is how they look when viewed on the desktop. Same crop, but the D500 shot is bigger.

    DX Mode-1.jpg

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    480sparky's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    .......... Imagine that sign on the transformer were a bird. If the distance I shot it from is the closest I can get, the bird is going to be bigger in the DX image......
    And that is 'reach'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    ..........Also, because the pixel density is higher, there's going to be a lot more detail. Look at how much clearer the D500 crop is......
    And that.......... is resolution.
    Don't mind me... I'm out roaming around somewhere between Zone III and VII.


    Go forth and actuate!


    My Website.

  9. #29
    Senior Member
    Horoscope Fish's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    It's hard to see the relative sizes in the post above, but here is how they look when viewed on the desktop. Same crop, but the D500 shot is bigger.

    DX Mode-1.jpg
    .....
    Not sure what your point is. I pulled down and opened two of your images; on the left is one of your shots from the D500. On the right is the same shot, so to speak, but taken with the D750. Image file names display in the top left corner of each.

    Image size for both shots is 600 x 400 pixels and both are being viewed at 100% magnification as you can see at the bottom of each shot:
    ......
    .....
    DX Mode-screen-shot-10-15-17-02.46-pm.jpg
    ~ Paul
    ....
    ....
    Primary Kit :: D750 (OLPF Removed), MB-D10; Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 Di VC USD G2, Tamron 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD, Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art,
    Yongnuo Flashes & Triggers, Manfrotto X055PROB, 3-Legged Thing Airhed II... All Stuffed into a Manfrotto Pro Backpack 50
    ....
    ....
    ● ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ๑۩۩๑ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ●

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Horoscope Fish's Avatar

    Re: DX Mode

    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    I suppose my definition of reach is—a larger final image. Imagine that sign on the transformer were a bird. If the distance I shot it from is the closest I can get, the bird is going to be bigger in the DX image.
    Which is pretty much how we all define "reach" when referring to crop factor, zoom lenses, etc.

    .....
    Quote Originally Posted by ISOhappy View Post
    Also, because the pixel density is higher, there's going to be a lot more detail. Look at how much clearer the D500 crop is.
    Which is due to the higher resolution.

    I know I'm essentially repeating 480sparky's previous post but there are only so many ways one can put this.
    ~ Paul
    ....
    ....
    Primary Kit :: D750 (OLPF Removed), MB-D10; Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 Di VC USD G2, Tamron 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD, Sigma 50mm f/1.4 Art,
    Yongnuo Flashes & Triggers, Manfrotto X055PROB, 3-Legged Thing Airhed II... All Stuffed into a Manfrotto Pro Backpack 50
    ....
    ....
    ● ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ๑۩۩๑ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ●





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