D500 USED WITH FLASH AND AUTO-ISO : problems ???

FLATSIX

New member
[FONT=&quot]Hello,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When I use auto-iso function WITHOUT using my flash SB700 then I can see the proposed ISO-value at what the photo will be taken.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When I do the same, but put my flash to ON, then I can only see a fixed ISO-value (= 4 x the setting of my lowest ISO - that value is 100 so the ISO that shows = 400)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is this normal that a fixed ISO is shown when flash put to "on" and in AUTO-ISO - when pointing the camera to dark or bright scenes that ISO (400 in my case) is not changing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Everything in the menu is set properly - ISO for flash is set "the same as without flash" - so I put the upper limit of ISO to 6400, then the upperlimit of flash would be the same.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What am I missing here ?

Thanks for your help, because I am a little worried about my "machine"....[/FONT]
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
Hello,
When I use auto-iso function WITHOUT using my flash SB700 then I can see the proposed ISO-value at what the photo will be taken.
When I do the same, but put my flash to ON, then I can only see a fixed ISO-value (= 4 x the setting of my lowest ISO - that value is 100 so the ISO that shows = 400)
Is this normal that a fixed ISO is shown when flash put to "on" and in AUTO-ISO - when pointing the camera to dark or bright scenes that ISO (400 in my case) is not changing.
Everything in the menu is set properly - ISO for flash is set "the same as without flash" - so I put the upper limit of ISO to 6400, then the upperlimit of flash would be the same.
What am I missing here ?

Thanks for your help, because I am a little worried about my "machine"....
First off, you can relax; this behavior is normal. One could argue it's a bit odd, and I would agree with you, but nonetheless it IS normal.

For a fuller explanation, see this article on Auto-ISO and Flash.

For myself, I simply don't use Auto-ISO when using a hot-shoe mounted flash; I dial in an appropriate ISO and work with it.
 

FLATSIX

New member
Are we sure that the D500 does noet show the ISO for ambient light instead of 4x the lowest iso-setting ? When I point my camera to dark areas and then to bright areas : nothing changes to the ISO400 that is shown in het viewfinder?
I had a shoot a few weeks ago (200 photos) and with flash - I seem to remember that I saw the ISO changing when I changed shutter speed or when I changed diafragm? I would certainly been frustrated when I always saw that : ISO400; BUT now I see it constantly.
The explanation of the article on Auto-iso and flash is based on the older models - is my D500 failing or is it normal on a D500?
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
Are we sure that the D500 does noet show the ISO for ambient light instead of 4x the lowest iso-setting ? When I point my camera to dark areas and then to bright areas : nothing changes to the ISO400 that is shown in het viewfinder?
I had a shoot a few weeks ago (200 photos) and with flash - I seem to remember that I saw the ISO changing when I changed shutter speed or when I changed diafragm? I would certainly been frustrated when I always saw that : ISO400; BUT now I see it constantly.
The explanation of the article on Auto-iso and flash is based on the older models - is my D500 failing or is it normal on a D500?
There is nothing I am aware of that indicates Auto-ISO is implemented any differently on the D500 than in the past. There are many things which can that alter the behavior of Auto-ISO including, but not limited to, the Auto-ISO settings themselves, what Mode you're shooting in (P, S, A, M or Auto), if the flash is the pop-up or hot-shoe mounted etc. So before you rush to your local repair shop thinking you have a broken camera, you might want to consider some experimentation and/or research.

Further, on a more practical level, are you getting good exposure when you use your flash and Auto-ISO? If so, then I'd say everything is working as it should, even if it's not working exactly how you want it to, or if it's doing so in a way you do not always fully understand. The way I look at it things like this is when choosing to use options like Auto-ISO it's because I've decided to let the camera take control of that aspect of the shooting; if it delivers consistent results then I think we have to agree it's doing it's job. So if you're looking for an in-depth technical analysis of how Auto-ISO works in conjunction with every other possible menu combination, that's something I can't offer you. I would simply suggest if you don't like the way Auto-ISO does what it does, turn it off and take back control over that particular aspect of your shooting.
 

FLATSIX

New member
i DID A SHOOT WITH FLASH SOME WEEKS AGO AND I THOUGHT THAT THE ISO - INDICATION DID CHANGE ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT. TODAY I SEE THAT MY D500 ONLY GIVES 4X THE LOWEST ISO-NUMBER AND IT DOES NOT CHANGE WHEN POINTED TO BRIGHT OR DARK.

THAT IS WHY I STARTED WORRYING IF THIS IS NORMAL.
IS THERE A D500-OWNER THAT CAN HAVE A LOOK AND CONFIRM IF THE AUTO-ISO THAT IS SHOWED DOES CHANGE OR IS FOUR TIMES THE LOWEST ISO THAT IS SET ? THEN i CAN STOP WORRYING;;;
 

lokatz

Senior Member
Mine behaves exactly the same way. I turned off AutoISO, removed the flash, turned AutoISO back on, and everything is back to normal (ISO follows the light). Seems an odd behavior, but is certainly no reason to worry about the camera malfunctioning.
 

FLATSIX

New member
Dear Lokatz, I did the same thing: turning off auto-iso and back-on. Did this several times - then a totall reset - then removed the batterie etc. etc. but mine keeps giving iso400 without giving higher iso when I point to dark rooms. He does noet follow the light, just indicates 4x the iso100 low setting in my auto-iso.
I have also an old D7000 - it behaves the same way, but during my shoot I am certain that the D500 performed by giving high iso readings so that I could see what I was doing before taking the shot- now it is after....
I hope it will fix itself soon. I don't like this at all.
 

FLATSIX

New member
No, my auto-iso max. is set to 8000 - my auto-iso minimum = 100 iso. The camera takes 4x 100= 400 iso and shows this all the time in the viewfinder or lcd-panel on top. But pictures are taken at other - higher settings depending on the light-situation.

Very odd thing!
 

RocketCowboy

Senior Member
First off, howdy and welcome to Nikonites!!!

How is your SB700 set up? Are you trying to shoot flash in TTL, or using manual controls for flash output?

The problem I can see here, and really it doesn't matter whether the flash is TTL or manual, is that there's another light source being introduced to the exposure which can't be metered by the camera body. You might have a dark scene that without flash should be shot at ISO 3200 (for instance), but how would the camera determine whether that is still the correct ISO if your subject is a portrait 5 feet in front of the camera and the flash is set to 1/1 power? If the flash is set to TTL, the TTL calculation isn't done until the pre-flash when the shutter is tripped, so the camera has a similar problem where the ISO needs to be determined before the shutter is tripped, so that TTL can adjust the flash as necessary.

My shooting style aligns with the recommendation that Horoscope Fish mentioned. When flash comes into play, I tend to lock down all my other exposure settings (ISO, shutter, aperture) for the environment, and then I dial in flash power to taste.
 

FLATSIX

New member
I set it in A , S or M-mode - the camera acts the same : gives ISO400 - and does not follow the lightsource. During my shoot a couple weeks ago he acted differently. Nothing has changed.
I set the flash to TTL - checked the few settings there also several times : everything should be O.K. there.....
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Hello,
When I use auto-iso function WITHOUT using my flash SB700 then I can see the proposed ISO-value at what the photo will be taken.
When I do the same, but put my flash to ON, then I can only see a fixed ISO-value (= 4 x the setting of my lowest ISO - that value is 100 so the ISO that shows = 400)
Is this normal that a fixed ISO is shown when flash put to "on" and in AUTO-ISO - when pointing the camera to dark or bright scenes that ISO (400 in my case) is not changing.

That is normal for the relatively newer models of Nikon DSLR. Nikon has changed the way Auto ISO works with TTL flash three times over the last ten years.

Auto ISO is NEVER enabled if a manual flash is detected present. Manual flash cannot respond to ISO changes. Auto ISO will be set to minimum ISO then.

In the beginning of CLS (D70 ten years ago), presence of a TTL flash also disabled Auto ISO too. Auto ISO was always at minimum ISO if a flash was detected. They had it right, and that's my preference, I'm sorry they changed it.

Then when the D300S (2009) was offered, this stopped. ISO would stay at the very high value metered for ambient, regardless if TTL flash was present or not. That is NOT the best way to use flash.

And Nikon apparently regretted it too, and starting with around the D7000 (2010), they corrected that. Now Auto ISO with a TTL flash will go at most two stops above minimum, which is ISO 400 if from ISO 100 minimum). This two stops is often necessary and desirable for bounce flash, which often needs ISO 400.

More at Auto ISO and Nikon Flash

If you want a higher ISO you can turn off Auto ISO and set it higher, but that's not a good plan for flash in general. Because this high ISO boosts the incandescent ambient high and visible, and it is orange. The flash is white. The only way to correct that bad white balance imbalance is to set Incandescent WB, and then put CTO orange filters on the flash.
Or better, just turn Auto ISO off with flash.
 
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spb_stan

Senior Member
It depends on metering mode but if you are using Matrix you have to consider the camera and flash have independent metering systems. The metering calculate a value to expose the entire scene in Matrix and then, the flash meters the FP spot independently to expose that spot properly, regardless of how the camera metered the scene. That means M exposure mode works great but you setting the exposure triad to had bright or dark you wish the scene to be and the flash meters for the spot and calculates the flash power for the spot. That is how photographers who want control of the ratio of ambient to subject exposure to be.
Add Auto ISO and everything went nuts for years, because cameras let the Auto Iso operate normally as if there was no flash attached so often you got overly exposed images with higher ISO than you expected. So Nikon tried a few methods of detecting the flash settings to limit ISO in auto mode, from going high to expose the whole scene the way it would assuming no flash was attached. The finally settled on allowing the ISO a limited upper limit if in iTTL metering mode on the flash. That is a decent compromise but experienced users who use flash for artistic control use Manual exposure and fixed iso when using iTTL flash because it is the easiest and offers the most control...it is also fast.
There are two iTTL modes for the flash, one is when using camera metering in Matrix mode and the flash mode become iTTL BL, which stands for Balanced moded. This is really cool. Matrix considers the entire scene and displays the results on the meter but makes no changes to the exposure triad. The meter deflection shows the ambient background reading with the current manual aperture, ISO and shutter values. Look in the VF and notice the reading and make intentional settings of the Triad to expose the background as you intend with independent control of depth of field, ambient background shutter speed needs to freeze movement and ISO to a value that renders the background at the desired signal to noise ratio. With the capability of higher ISO setting on newer cameras seems impressive it is still a noisy image if set high. Those settings allow you to control each of those factors as desired for the intended appearance of the finished image. When the shot is taken the flash meters the FP and sets a power needed to expose it properly. If you centered the meter for the camera Triad settings, adding the flash is going to add flash to an already properly exposed scene, it is blown out. So instead of metering for camera expose of the entire scene centered(which would be proper exposure if the flash not even on), adjust the best variable of the triad to lower the ambient background brightness, say 1-2 stop low, then when the flash meter takes its FB spot reading it adds light to properly exposure the subject, and allow the background to remain the level you set on the camera. To control the FB exposure, use flash compensation. to brighten or darken the main subject. This is a Balanced mode that allows independent adjustment of background and subject illumination.
It is a lot simpler to to than describe. For most scenes you can just level the camera settings alone after determining the background brightness desired and just let the flash nail exposure of the subject every time.
Nikon had to add a function to limit ISO from blowing out scenes when people left their cameras on Auto ISO by mistake so they settled on 4x.
If you need flash, switch to M exposure mode, you will be happier and have images that are more like you intended.. Even in scenes where the foreground subject is moving, the camera exposure settings can be longer shutter times if desired to get better low light color fidelity, with a long exposure, because the subject will still be exposed by the duration of the flash pulse, about 1/10,000 or faster, so the subject is fully frozen but the background may have used a very slow shutter to get more ambient light contribution. If very slow, say 1/6th of a second, expect some ghosting of background movement but that can allow dark scenes to be exposed well while allowing low ISOs for lower noise.
So the 4x ISO is only intended to save shots where the user forgot to turn off Auto-ISO, it is a compromise useful for casual snapshot but not intended for photographer controlled shooting...sort of a Cell phone camera mode for casual snapshots.
Think of the artistic control that becomes available when you can set wide apertures to blur the background, by using high shutter speeds, or where you want the background well exposed and sharp, using stopped down apertures while slowing the shutter to capture whatever light is there, with good color saturation by using a small aperture and slow shutter speed.
So no, it is not a problem you are having but a good reminder to switch to full manual control for artistic control and better photos.
That is Matrix metering mode. In Spot metering mode the background is not used for camera metering only the same spot that the flash is using so the background is ignored, so to get properly exposed subjects, set the triad to underexpose as you which to allow the flash to contribute without blowing out the FP subject.
Once you get the hang of manual exposure and iTTL BL mode, you will never go back to flash snap shots, that might be better done by your cell phone.
Try experiments by setting Matrix meter exposure to whatever triad settings you wish, even very low shutter speeds, such that the meter in the VF is 1 stop or 2 stops underexpose and let the flash do its thing and you will see the flash added the one stop to the subject and not to the background(inverses square law fall off) which stays pretty much as you manually set the exposure triad. Under exposing on the VF meter 2 stops down still exposes the subject properly but the background drops to a bit less than 2 stops darker, drop the metering more and the background gets darker but the subject still is exposed well. Dropping the metering 4 stops down and the background starts to look black. That is a way of getting Low Key lighting effect of making a background scene disappear behind a well exposed subject. No need for portrait background paper or canvas, even in a crowded room you can make a cluttered background disappear behinds a well exposed subject.
So, turn off Auto ISO and start getting better flash images.
 

FLATSIX

New member
Dear STAN,
Thanks for the explanation - I can follow it till it comes to playing with ISO-settings + flash...
When I set camera to "M" without using flash - I can dial in "shutterspeed" and "aperture" manually. At the same time I see the ISO-setting at which camera will take exposure. So if in my opinion too high, then I lower my speed or I take a bigger aperture and the iso drops. Then I take the picture but I know at which ISO it will be taken.

Now it comes: when I put my flash to "ON" - then I have exactly the same thing : I am in "M" and can set my shutterspeed and my aperture : only the ISO showing is always "400" (= 4x min.setting of 100). Whatever I change, the ISO remains 400. Then I take my shot but: SURPRISE : it is taken at ISO 8000 !! (this is the worst case as my upperlimit = 8000)

So - the camera shows 400 and let me think that is will take picture with flash around this value , no, in reality it goes extremely high in ISO when using flash.

During my shoot 2 weeks ago it seemed to me that the ISO showed was the same iso as without flash, that way I had control over what camera would do about iso when taking the shot.

My D500 has some strange behaviour : yesterday after shooting I check the battery-level : it indicates only 1% of charge. I look at the battery-symbol on my lcd-screen = it is not blinking + indicates some black in it to tell there is still charge ????
 

spb_stan

Senior Member
Does the flash display show TTL or TTL BL? Are you using bounce flash? When checking the meter in the VF, is it centered or underexposed as it should be.
The real problem with auto-ISO and flash is the camera has no idea of what you really want. In the case of 400 ISO, it assumes you have under exposed intentionally because why use a flash if expose is right without it? Are you setting a under exposed condition by about a stop? There are a lot of variables, and the camera is having to guess what you want. If the meter is centered and using direct flash, it will be assured to be over-exposed. It is using an ISO as reference that will underexpose so there flash contribution does not run out of headroom of the shot.
How is the flash being used, what mode does it display TTL, M or TTL BL and is the shutter speed over 1/250, the flash sync speed? If over 1/320, the flash goes into high speed sync mode which greatly reduces power because it emits a very fast set up pulsed light for the duration of the shutter opening time. That should only be used with direct flash, not bounce. If using bounce, it will under expose and the auto ISO will climb

Please describe the exact display information in the flash, whether it is locked in direct or at an angle, any FC dialed in, shutter speed you selected distance to the subject. That should be enough to track the problem down. None of this is needed if just use what all of us use with flash and strobes: fixed ISO.

Try the same shot but 1/250 or slower, front curtain, and an iso that gives about 1-2 stops under exposed on the meter. Try is direct and bounce. Using matrix metering it should say TTL Bl, when shooting direct flash and TTL when metering spot.
 

FLATSIX

New member
Hallo Stan,
Flash shows TTL BL - camera is set to TTL-mode. When using shutter speed priority = S with shutterspeeds below 1/250 = the same result.

Display of camera shows all the time iso400 - except when pointed to very bright scenes, then it droppes under iso400. And takes picture at that reading.
Otherwise : whatever I set for shutterspeed : vieuwfinder shows always iso400 - on the other hand I have no clou at what iso picture will be made : it could be iso400, it could be my max. iso setting of 8000? Camera does not tell me nothing.

Before, at that party-shoot, I am almost certain that with flash the camera showed me the iso-values (the same as without flash) - so I could anticipate and lower my proposed iso-setting by changing aperture or slower shutter speed. It appaers to me that suddenly now this has changed by showing me now constantly iso400 in the vieuwfinder and then taking pictures at very high iso-numbers without warning me.

All my settings should be good - I did not change any. I also have that e-book for the D500 with the 990 pages - I read this carefully so I know most of the possibilities and settings of the D500. In that 990 pages book they do not tell what you should see in the viewfinder with auto-iso on and flash on (that is a pity).

So I still think that there is a malfunction of the D500 in my possession - and some others too ??......
 

spb_stan

Senior Member
Why add another uncontrolled variable of shutter speed. It can't give you exposure values until the flash fires to see what light is returned. In auto modes you have no metering indication. Did you try full manual mode, so the meter is displayed? I think you are making it harder on the camera to guess what you want. Until that flash fires the only metering is ambient light. It is making an initial mid range value assuming the flash is going to contribute more light of unknown power that is calculated from the light reflected from the subject when lit by flash.
This is why everyone who does flash photography, uses manual mode for exposure, it is really easier and more effective. That way you have fewer variables to consider and the camera knows what you want.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
[The camera] is making an initial mid range value assuming the flash is going to contribute more light of unknown power that is calculated from the light reflected from the subject when lit by flash.
I think this lies at the heart of why you think your D500 is not functioning correctly. The camera can't know what ISO is needed for proper exposure with the flash, until the flash fires a pre-flash. The camera uses the light reflected from the pre-flash AND the degree of ambient light, and meters for the total amount of light that will be passing Through The Lens (TTL) and hitting the sensor. Based on all that data Auto-ISO determines which particular ISO to use to obtain proper exposure. Both minimum and maximum ISO's are determined by you in the Auto-ISO menu. You determine in that specific menu what range of ISO values the camera is permitted to use. If you don't want it using ISO12800, set a lower maximum ISO value in the Auto-ISO menu.

Now, it just so happens your camera, and many other Nikon cameras, use a baseline of 4 times the minimum ISO as has been set in the Auto-ISO menu. You have ISO100 set as your minimum ISO so the camera uses ISO400 as the starting point because that's simply how Auto-ISO has been configured to work. Love it or hate, that's simply what it does; I mean, it has to start somewhere, right? Further, if and when the meter determines there is a whole lot of ambient light your camera "assumes" a lower ISO may work since it "knows" the flash is also available. It can't know precisely what ISO to use until it gathers all the necessary data, however and that necessary data is provided via the pre-flash from the flash in operation, whether that's the on-board flash or one mounted in the hot-shoe. Know also Auto-ISO does attempt use the lowest ISO it "thinks" it can get away with, while still providing proper exposure and working with the range you have set in the Auto-ISO menu.

.....
This is why everyone who does flash photography, uses manual mode for exposure, it is really easier and more effective. That way you have fewer variables to consider and the camera knows what you want.
Exactly. It really is much easier, and gives better results (not only in my experience but also in the experience of many, many others who know this stuff far better than I)), to manually select a workable ISO and use things like Exposure Compensation (EC), Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC) and manually adjusting flash output to get the exact exposure desired.

If you're still convinced your D500 is not functioning correctly, I can only suggest you send it to a Nikon service-center for evaluation.

.....
 
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