P7700 and Elements 10

Kenty

Senior Member
Hi,
I have just purchased a P7700 and want to use the RAW facility (NRW). I took some test photos today using NRW and elements won't accept it as it is 'The wrong kind of file'.
I have made sure Elements 10 is up to date as is - as far as I can ascertain - Camera Raw (V6.7.0.339).
Is there a way round this?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
 

Kenty

Senior Member
Thanks. I've found Camera 7.2 on the adobe site but it includes a DNG converter. Is this a separate program or does it become part of Elements 10? If a separate program I assume I have to open a photo with the DNG converter and when processed then open elements in the usual way and process the DNG photo using Camera Raw
Presumably the converter lets me do batch processing?
​This is new to me so please excuse my ignorance.
Thanks
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Sort of both separate and part of too. The DNG converter is a separate program. Its update status is maintained better. That is, you can get new versions of DNG anytime (I think you must go find them though), but not of ACR (old versions abandoned after Adobe moves onto the next version of Elements). So, if you buy a new camera next year, you may need a new Elements then too. But if you have Raw files you cannot open, probably a newer DNG will convert them to DNG, which you can then use in older Elements, in the same way.

With the converter present, the Adobe "download card files to computer" utility probably has an option to automatically convert to DNG at download (if you desire, it is far from necessary). Compatibility becomes different... i.e., some programs (like say Nikon programs) can open NEF, but not DNG. Other programs cannot handle NEF, but can open DNG.

The converter does batch conversion, but no other processing.
 
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Fred Kingston

Senior Member
Just for a bit of additional clarity... DNG is an open source file structure developed by Adobe... Nikon's NEF is proprietary to Nikon, and other camera makers have similar proprietary RAW file structures...

As was mentioned... and example being LR... by ticking a few boxes... when you import files into LR's catalogue... you can do several things... move copies of the files, etc... additionally, you can convert the NEF files to DNG...

There are some folks that think Adobe is less likely to change an open source structure than a camera manufacturer that finds they may have painted themselves in a corner...:)
 

WayneF

Senior Member
There are some folks that think Adobe is less likely to change an open source structure than a camera manufacturer that finds they may have painted themselves in a corner...:)

All very true, but there are some Nikon users that can imagine trying Nikon Raw software in the future. Then their DNG files will be out of luck. It may not be a casual arbitrary choice.

Me, I use Adobe ACR, but I like NEF files.
 

Kenty

Senior Member
Thanks for help - I have successfully loaded Adobe DNG converter and I have been able to use Elements 10 with ACR to process/edit my photos.

A couple of points.

1. The NRW files are around 25MBs but when converted to DNG the files are around 17/18MBs. Does this mean some compression takes place?
2. My NRW thumbnails do not show a picture - not a disaster as once converted to DNG I can see the photo on the DNG thumbnail. Is there a way I can see NRW thumbnails. Note I am using Elements 10 and Irfanview.

Thanks.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Note I am using Elements 10 and Irfanview.

Use Adobe ACR for Raw instead of Irfanview. Probably you are, probably not your meaning, but...

Irfanview, Faststone, etc, are NOT Raw editors. They might "read" DNG and NEF files, but they do not see the edited changes you may have previously made in ACR. They only show the original unedited data, every time, regardless. They have no other Raw capability. Basically, no Raw capability. They are NOT Raw editors.

If you edit in Irfanview, you are editing RGB data, and it can save that data as a new file type. No problem with that. But afterwards, if you open the original Raw file again, you again only see the original data, not your current changes. These are NOT Raw editors.

Whereas, Adobe ACR is very different. It reads the Raw files, and when you make edit changes (white balance, exposure, cropping, whatever), ACR only saves THE LIST of those changes that you have specified, into a same-file-name.XMP file. It has other ways too, but XMP is only 8 KB, and very fast to update. Bypassing the XMP file is "cutting off nose to spite the face". :) Then when you open the Raw file next time, it also reads both files, and applies those previous changes, as your new starting point. And you can change those instructions in that list at any time, just tweak your edit. For example, you can Uncrop - your original pixels are not gone. Lossless editing.

Here is the big deal:

ACR NEVER changes the original Raw file. We don't even have tools that can change a Raw file. Subsequent edits only changes the list of your edits. It always starts with the original Raw file, which is LOSSLESS editing. Meaning, if you change White Balance half a dozen times, every day for a week, it does not keep shifting the data back and forth. It merely saves your last stated change, and it applies that last shift to the original data ONE TIME, at any output. Raw tools and capability is a big deal, and this lossless editing is another big deal.

Adobe ACR can also do this same losseless editing for JPG files, like from your compact camera. It can open JPG, and it saves your edits as a LIST in the JPG file somewhere. The original JPG data is NOT changed (no new JPG artifacts created). But at any access, it applies that list of changes to the Original JPG file data, which is lossless editing. No more JPG artifacts every time, no shifting data back and forth, etc. JPG does not have the range that Raw has, but still, lossless editing is Really Good Stuff.

However, then other programs (like Irfanview) don't understand these new ways, and if opening that edited JPG file, they only show you the original JPG data, and they don't know about the list. So ACR has to OUTPUT a new JPG for other programs to use, like ACR outputs a JPG from Raw, for other programs to use (but this is only done ONE TIME, i.e., any JPG is expendable, discard it and its artifacts when any change is needed, and start over in ACR, and create a new JPG, ONE TIME)
 
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Kenty

Senior Member
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the very full info. Most helpful and interesting. One never stops learning.
I do use ACR for processing my photos and as I said earlier, now I have the DNG converter everything works OK.
I only use Irfanview for viewing Raw files whether DNG, NRW, JPG or PEF (main camera is a Pentax K5). At the moment I can open such photos in Irfanview and it also lets me view thumbnails but it won't let me view NRW thumbnails. (No problem when I convert them to DNG). What I need I think is a codec for NRW for Irfanview??? Not sure if I have that right. Any ideas??
Cheers...John
 

WayneF

Senior Member
The Irfanview "Open Files" dialog does use Windows to show that Open box and view.
There is a Nikon NEF codex for Windows, see the links a couple of messages up from here.
With that Nikon NEF codex installed, then the Irfanview Open Files dialog can see the image

(technically, the codex knows how to see a small embedded JPG in the NEF file, which is also what the camera rear LCD is showing... because, we have no tools to view Raw files, and RGB LCD cannot show Raw).
But regardless, Irfanview can only show the original file, it cannot show any ACR edits to that file.
I am saying (a test of this), in ACR, crop it to tiny size and edit it to be all black. Irfanview will still only show the original image, full size and not black.
Raw is lossless edits, so you can always easily put it back (in this extreme case, start with selecting Camera Raw Defaults)

So... what you really want to do is to batch convert (in Adobe, not in Irfanview) all the finished edited Raw files to be temporary JPG, for viewing. View them. Then when no longer useful, discard those, and create others, when you have other goals, edits or resample size or whatever. The Raw is always the source, plus the ACR edits, and then output any JPG you need for current goals. Raw is mighty convenient and powerful, but it is a new philosophy, a life change. ;)
 
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